Dr. Sunita Satyapal | How DoE's bold Hydrogen Shot will advance the industry

1-1-1 Hydrogen cost of $1 per 1 kg in 1 decade. Can we get there?

“No One Can Whistle A Symphony, It Takes An Orchestra to Play It”

As Director for the U.S. Department of Energy's (DoE) Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office, Dr. Sunita Satyapal is often referred to as the mother Theresa of hydrogen for her steadfast commitment to the industry over decades of ups and downs.

When President Biden asked the Secretary of Energy what more they could do that advance the energy transition, the DoE came up with its bold Hydrogen Shot (1-1-1), seeking to reduce the cost of hydrogen to $1/kg. Bullish about the industry, Sunita points out that, unlike many “false” turning points in the industry in the past, we are at a unique point in history where the hydrogen industry is no longer a decade away.

Sunita Satyapal is the Director for the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE's) Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office and coordinates activities across offices for the U.S. DOE Hydrogen Program.

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This article is part of the series: Hydrogen Innovators Podcast

Transcript

[00:00:00.00] [Chimes]

[00:00:03.14] Sunita Satypala: There's no one person that can whistle a symphony. It really takes the whole orchestra. And so now it's more-- more than ever, we need all hands on deck. This is such an important time in history.

[00:00:14.99] Karen Baert: That was Dr. Sunita Satyapal of the US Department of Energy introducing our podcast today with a quote from H.E. Luccock. Dear listeners, welcome to this week's episode of the Hydrogen Innovators. It's a podcast series produced by the Stanford Hydrogen Initiative, spotlighting bold innovators in hydrogen all the way from academia to industry. You can find our podcast series, Hydrogen Innovators on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[00:00:46.11] I'm Karen Baert, a recent Stanford MBA graduate, entrepreneur, and innovation strategist at the Hydrogen Initiative. And I'm thrilled to be your host for this week's podcast. Today, we have the incredible privilege to welcome Dr. Sunita Satyapal. Sunita, thank you so much for being here with us today.

[00:01:05.87] Sunita Satypala: Thank you so much for the invitation.

[00:01:09.23] Karen Baert: Dr. Sunita Satyapal is a director for the US Department of Energy's Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Office. She coordinates across offices on hydrogen, which now covers over $10 billion in funding.

[00:01:23.49] She's been more than 2 and 1/2 decades of experience across industry, academia, and government, all the way from research to deployment. Sunita is often known as the Joan of Arc, or Jeanne d'Arc, or Mother Teresa for hydrogen due to her steadfast commitment over decades of ups and downs. She received a PhD from Columbia University and did postdoctoral work in applied and engineering physics at Cornell.

[00:01:53.01] Sunita, today we'd love to talk a little bit about the hydrogen industry and your view on the industry. Then we'd love to move towards some more specific details on the DOE and the DOE strategy in hydrogen. And finally, we will end the podcast with some more personal leadership, questions.

[00:02:13.83] Sunita Satypala: Well, thank you so much.

[00:02:15.42] Karen Baert: Great, let's dive straight in. So you have been working on fuel cells since, I think, the early 2000s before there was this much attention around hydrogen. There was a first burst of engagement in 2003 with the start of the fuel cell initiative. And you joined the DOE right at that time.

[00:02:37.00] Now, fuel cells, and hence electrolyzer technology, have been around for a while. The PEM electrolyzer technology was developed in 1960 at General Electric. Both of us just got back from CERAweek in Houston, and hydrogen was one of the main topics there with all of the hydrogen-related sessions very well attended. Now what has changed?

[00:02:59.76] Sunita Satypala: Yeah, so-- and, again, Karen, thanks so much for the invitation and for all of your efforts in terms of education, outreach, just the interest in hydrogen. And I think there are three main changes that I think are critical. And one is that countries are recognizing that, in order to meet their climate goals, they need a carbon-free molecule, just electrification alone is not going to be sufficient.

[00:03:25.15] And there are so many different sectors. Again, hydrogen is just one part of a really comprehensive portfolio, but especially the hard to decarbonize sectors like industrial applications, just making ammonia, for instance, or other examples like steel or heavy-duty transportation where batteries may not be optimal. There are, again, many examples where it's just very difficult for countries to decarbonize. They're looking at importing a carbon-free molecule.

[00:03:56.53] And then the other, I think, main reason is that the cost of renewables has actually come down really dramatically. And so you can actually get lower cost hydrogen now. And even a decade ago with the shale gas revolution, we saw hydrogen from natural gas. That cost really fell significantly.

[00:04:17.31] And then, third, I think that they change, is that technology has also improved really significantly. So when we were initially funding a lot of this work, since then, we've seen the cost of fuel cells, electrolyzers really come down. Performance has improved.

[00:04:34.84] We've seen a four-fold increase or more in durability, better efficiency. There are more commercial products. I think all of those pieces of the puzzle are starting to fall into place, and that's what's helping to catalyze the increased interest.

[00:04:51.78] Karen Baert: Very interesting, and I love how it's technology, market, policy all coming together moving the industry forward. Now, the DOE has been a key driver in hydrogen strategy and technology development in the United States. But industry experts often refer to the DOE's ambitious and very famous target of the hydrogen shot 111, $1 kilogram hydrogen in a decade. Can you tell us a bit more about the DOE's hydrogen strategy and the hydrogen shops and what will take for us to get there?

[00:05:28.45] Sunita Satypala: Yes, and when the Biden administration came in and President Biden actually asked our Secretary of Energy, what more can we do to really accelerate progress and meet our climate goals? So that was the beginning of the Energy Earthshots Initiative within DOE. And the very first shot was hydrogen shot.

[00:05:48.86] And like you said, it's this bold, really ambitious, very easily articulated target of 111, so appropriate for element number one. And it's meant to be like the moonshot from over half a century ago, so to really galvanize the whole community. And there have been a few other Earthshots as well.

[00:06:08.30] But the goal was really to look at all possible approaches, so all hands on deck. And any way to get to that goal, we focused a lot on electrolysis, and the kind of baseline cost is about $5 per kilogram when we started. That's an 80% reduction.

[00:06:27.86] And then we also launched an incubator prize, again, looking at potential early-stage approaches. We're planning some major funding announcements to help ramp up manufacturing. We also are looking at innovative approaches like pyrolysis or other waste, again, many, many options to get to that goal.

[00:06:51.72] And in terms of the national strategy, that was actually required in the bipartisan infrastructure law. So as you mentioned, now we're seeing lots of policy developments. And so that requires-- many countries actually have national strategies, and we've been coordinating.

[00:07:08.69] But this requires the US to develop a national strategy and roadmap for clean hydrogen. So we did that, and we actually released it. The Secretary released it for public comment, so in the spirit of transparency. And the comment period closed in December.

[00:07:25.53] So we're reviewing all the comments, but there are three main components, so basically, target hydrogen for those really high impact uses, those strategic hard-to-decarbonize uses. Second is reduce the cost. So even though we have the tax credits, we have policy, we still need to ensure that we have commercially viable long-term, market-sustainable products and systems, so focus on cost. Hydrogen shot fits in there.

[00:07:52.61] And then we also have focus on regional networks. So there we have the hydrogen hubs and especially as we start to catalyze the industry, build up production, and use connective infrastructure to, again, help to drive down the cost of infrastructure and get to scale. So those are just a few examples that are in the strategy. And then there are many concrete actions and details in the strategy. So, again, a very exciting time.

[00:08:23.51] Karen Baert: Fantastic, I want to dive a bit deeper on this $1 a kilogram goal and this 80% cost reduction target because I love how bold it is. Looking at that target, I'd like to categorize it into two different buckets, the CapEx, so fixed costs and then the OpEx, the variable costs. And within CapEx, I kind of see two big levers, the cost of the stack and then the balance of plants.

[00:08:48.66] And then, within the variable costs, or OpEx, again, two levers increasing efficiency and reducing electricity costs. Which levers do you think will lead to the most substantial cost reductions? Or what are you most worried about to get that cost down?

[00:09:06.89] Sunita Satypala: Yeah, and there we have-- basically, I think there are two main categories. And one is how you actually deploy the electrolyzer. So you want really low-cost electricity, low-cost electrons, but you also want high utilization.

[00:09:23.12] So you want to be able to not just use the electrons when there's low capacity factor, but run as much as possible. So you may need to come in with baseload clean electrons, for instance, nuclear use, low-cost solar, wind. And then the second is, like you said, the capital cost, but you also want to improve efficiency because, again, most of the cost, over half the cost is the cost of electricity.

[00:09:50.93] And so you have capital cost, your ability, utilization, efficiency, those are all the various levers that we're looking at. And within the capital, there are various-- depending on the type of electrolyzer, for example, if it's PEM, we would want to reduce the amount of iridium because that's one of the key issues. And so we have created, and we have many targets.

[00:10:17.34] In fact, if those who are interested in the details under hydrogen.energy.gov, our team has posted the various targets. So, for example, roughly $1,000 a kilowatt for a capital cost, system cost, baseline going to about $150 a kilowatt, a really ambitious reduction in capital costs in order to get those goals. And we have interim also in the bipartisan infrastructure law. It states that we need to get to $2 a kilogram by 2026. And so there, we have a system cost target of about $250 a kilowatt.

[00:11:02.01] So, again, starting from, let's say, roughly a 1,000-- again, there are many assumptions. Depends on the volume of manufacturing and so forth. But there are many, many targets in terms of efficiency, the ability to do that.

[00:11:13.27] Karen Baert: So would it be a fair summary to say that there's no specific lever that is going to account for the majority of the cost reduction. It's very much kind of incremental improvements across all these different levers that will help us to get--

[00:11:26.42] Sunita Satypala: I think that the cost of cost of electricity is still the biggest cost. But as we drive that down or improve the utilization, improve the efficiency, then we also need to improve capital cost and durability. So in other words, right now, the biggest cost is the cost of operating is electricity.

[00:11:47.67] Karen Baert: Mm-hmm, that's helpful. And I think it's important to recognize that this $1 a kilogram that we're talking about is the cost of production. And we all know that one of the biggest challenges with hydrogen is to store and transport it cost effectively.

[00:12:03.81] I understand that the DOE also has a target of a few dollars a kilogram for hydrogen, which includes that kind of distribution and storage costs. But it seems that's less well known or something I hadn't heard about. Would you mind elaborating a bit on that and what we need to get there?

[00:12:23.03] Sunita Satypala: Yeah, sure. And it's true that we focused first on the cost of production because you need that low-cost molecule to start with. But then definitely we-- the delivery, depending on the application as well. For instance, if it's for transportation, let's say a heavy-duty truck, you not only need to deliver it-- you may need to store it. But depending on how it's used, you need to compress it, dispense it.

[00:12:49.40] So you have all of those different steps in the pathway to actual end use. And so low cost, one of the lowest cost ways is pipelines. But they're also that's very capital intensive.

[00:13:03.03] And so now, for instance, we're talking about stations. You can have two trailers that are delivering high pressure. Liquid can deliver liquid tankers four to five times more than compressed gas.

[00:13:16.95] But, again, we have many targets for the cost of let's say, the hydrogen storage tank. If it's an on-board tank, if it's storage, let's say geological storage or other large bulk storage. That's another challenge.

[00:13:30.95] The delivery cost as well as the energy density is a challenge. So you can also use hydrogen carriers or other materials that can have a higher density than just high-pressure gas. So, again, we have many targets across the entire value chain. So it's not just production, but also the transport storage and dispensing or, finally, allowing the hydrogen to get to the point of use.

[00:13:59.56] Karen Baert: And I can imagine the right solution there on how to store and transfer. It is very dependent on the specific use case.

[00:14:07.84] Sunita Satypala: And the final cost that's needed, again, will depend on the application. So, for instance, if you produce hydrogen for $1, but, again, it's market driven, and we see early adopters can probably use $5, let's say, roughly $4 to $5 for the long-haul trucks. And that leaves you only $3 to $4 for the entire rest of the value chain. But that's actually quite ambitious because today, when you look at the cost of hydrogen dispensing to a vehicle, it can be quite a bit higher than that, over three to four times higher.

[00:14:43.61] Karen Baert: Wow, I think that's a great transition to start talking about different use cases. I understand that the DOE has a very detailed roadmap for hydrogen specified for short term, medium term, and long term. There was hydrogen and oil refining on the short-term hydrogen, and transportation, kind of more medium term. And then use cases like hydrogen in the power sector, longer term. Is there any specific use cases for hydrogen that you are most excited about or any end markets where you think hydrogen is being considered but you believe it might not be the right fit?

[00:15:21.35] Sunita Satypala: Yeah, I think that, basically, again, the really hard-to-decarbonize sectors, I think, are the ones that there's most interest in because there aren't that many alternative solutions. So especially for those really long-haul trucks, that's an example. And I also think that starting, and I think many agree, that starting with the existing uses like the ammonia and the refining is really important because that will build up the industry because we already produce 10 million metric tons of hydrogen in the US, about 10% of the global capacity.

[00:15:55.35] And if you look at the global production of hydrogen, according to the International Energy Agency, hydrogen generation produces more greenhouse gases today than the entire country of Indonesia and the UK combined. So it's not being produced in a clean way. It's mostly from fossil fuels, and carbon's not being sequestered.

[00:16:17.52] So even regardless of new uses, we do need to clean up hydrogen production today because it is a commodity, a necessary commodity. To make fertilizer, to make various products, even gasoline, we need that hydrogen. But I do think that there's still quite a bit of work, but a huge opportunity for some of those hard to decarbonize sectors.

[00:16:42.15] And in addition to transportation and just enabling energy storage, so long-duration energy storage, enabling renewables, it's really an enabler in many ways. And it's often called a Swiss army knife of energy, again, because you can produce it from diverse domestic resources and use it. And you can-- I think fuel cells also are a very interesting application, just because they're much more efficient than combustion. And steel manufacturing is another one that's very much of interest.

[00:17:15.14] Karen Baert: The clean hydrogen industry is still a relatively nascent industry, if I can say so. And that always comes with the risk for hype or misconceptions. What do you believe is the biggest misconception about hydrogen today?

[00:17:32.37] Sunita Satypala: So I think the lack of awareness about hydrogen is one of the key challenges. So let alone having misconceptions, but just being aware about hydrogen. People know solar, wind, batteries, or even geothermal.

[00:17:46.21] But I feel like you often have to explain hydrogen and fuel cells. And then, second, I think the perception that it's always 10 years away, even those that know a little bit about hydrogen fuel cells. And so, again, the fact that it's already in the market, for instance, with the Recovery Act over a decade ago, in our office, we funded the very early demonstration through our market transformation program of forklifts and backup power.

[00:18:13.06] This was a very niche application. So completely zero emissions in the warehouses. You didn't have to charge the batteries. And there was some benefit.

[00:18:21.73] And we funded the early demonstrations to help de-risk the technology. And now there are over 50,000 in the market, over 200 stations, major companies like Amazon and Walmart. And every few seconds, some customer is refueling with hydrogen for that forklift industry. And I think, again, there's very little awareness about hydrogen. So I think that's one of the main challenges.

[00:18:46.62] Karen Baert: And I'm really glad you mentioned this limited awareness because I think that's exactly why we're here today. And more importantly, that's all the amazing work you and your team have been doing to get the word out and raise awareness have really moved the needle on this front and I'm sure will continue to do so going forward. So, Sunita, this has been super insightful already.

[00:19:08.43] I'd love for us to move to the next section of this podcast, which is talking a bit more about your personal path and diving into a couple of more personal leadership questions. To start off there, as I was preparing for this interview, I was looking at previous interviews of yours. And in one of these interviews, I learned that you always wanted to be a teacher.

[00:19:30.97] And one of the things that I find inspiring about teachers is that they touch so many lives. You can never tell where their influence stops. I'd argue that throughout your different roles, all the way from manager to chief engineer to now director, you've actually been touching many different lives in many different ways. How do you look at your career path so far? And what are your wishes for the future on that front?

[00:19:55.87] Sunita Satypala: Well, thank you for that question. And I have to say I did-- I was a teacher. I was a visiting professor for some time. And my mother was a physics professor and a sister who's an astrophysics professor and always interested in teaching.

[00:20:09.28] I love teaching, but I actually didn't have the patience for grading. And so I enjoy many different aspects of different careers, and I think it's helpful to try different things. And so I think I've always just been very interested in helping the next generation of the workforce and having those different roles.

[00:20:30.12] And many times, either as a manager or when I had students, I would sometimes see those who are very, very interested in progressing in their careers. And I would always say, you can't build a tree house without a tree. And so the first step is to really have a good foundation. So whatever it is, whether it's science or policy or anything, and don't be afraid to try different things.

[00:20:53.47] And, for me, it's not really about the career, but how do you have impact in helping to take things across the finish line? Hydrogen, for instance, is an enabler, and so just being an enabler. And there are many, many challenges. But it's great to see so many people over the years who've been successful and helped to take things across the finish line. We're still not there yet, but, hopefully, we'll be there soon.

[00:21:23.45] Karen Baert: I love that. And I think that's also a great inspiration for listeners who might be looking at similar career paths but are much earlier in their career today and still figuring out how they want to shape the energy industry going forward. Sunita, I'd like to end the podcast with a question that we ask every guest.

[00:21:43.73] And I have this strong belief that we all stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. And to use Isaac Newton's words, it's standing on their shoulders that makes us see further. In that context, who inspires you most and why?

[00:21:58.79] Sunita Satypala: Yeah, I think, I always say when I get that question that it has to be my parents first and foremost and everything that they went through and how much they did to help my sisters and I. And so my father actually came to the US on a cargo ship many years ago before I was born.

[00:22:17.10] And he passed away, but without a penny, basically, and made everything-- he ended up getting a PhD from Michigan State University and ended up being-- eventually being a director at the United Nations development program. So it always about giving back. And then my mother also-- it was very unusual in those days to have a PhD in physics and did so much.

[00:22:39.38] And so I think with all their hard work and inspiration, education was the most important thing for them. And so savings, so to send my sisters and I to school, and all that was, I think, really tremendous. And then I also have to say that the people that I work with are very inspiring. So especially my office, when I see all the dedication, just the commitment-- and just the entire hydrogen community, it's a very close-knit community. There's a lot of solidarity.

[00:23:08.18] And so when I first became director a long time ago, I started the practice of bringing in fellows. So those who-- we have a fellowship program, and junior folks and contractors. Many of them have become federal employees, and many have joined the private sector now.

[00:23:24.25] They're doing really well. And so I'm really proud of them. And so they inspire me also. And just in general with those who hired me to, again, over 20 years ago. So specifically, JoAnn Milliken, Steve Chalk took a real chance and helped to shape the program that we have today.

[00:23:42.31] Karen Baert: Beautiful. I love this focus on giving back. And it's so clear to me that you're paying that forward as well. Sunita, thank you so much for your time today, for all the learnings and especially for the inspiration.

[00:23:56.36] There's so much happening at the DOE right now. And you're clearly leading the industry and driving change in the hydrogen industry. We are very much looking forward to continue to follow all the incredible change that you guys are fueling. And we will keep cheering you on from the sidelines. Thank you so much for the conversation today.

[00:24:18.07] Sunita Satypala: A quote that I often use is there's-- no one person can whistle a symphony. It takes the whole orchestra. And so now more than ever, you need all hands on deck.

[00:24:28.93] So this is such an important time in history for climate. Everything, we look at everything around us. And so we need government, industry, universities.

[00:24:39.06] We need investors and especially the focus on disadvantaged communities, those who are less fortunate. The administration has a Justice40 initiative where 40% of our specific federal investments would benefit disadvantaged communities, so those who've historically experienced injustice. And so, again, I think that this is such a critical time for all of us.

[00:25:00.96] And how do we ensure that we have all hands on deck to really accelerate and move the needle? The impact, I think, is the key goal. So thank you for everything you're doing to help in that regard.

[00:25:12.30] [Music Playing]