Florence Lambert | High-temperature electrolyzers for industrial hydrogen

In this episode, we learn from Florence Lambert, CEO of Genvia, a French high-temperature electrolyzer company.

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This article is part of the series: Hydrogen Innovators Podcast

Transcript

[00:00:00.00] [Music Playing]

[00:00:02.81] Florence Lambert: Let's not forget, again, what we have to face at decarbonization is the ultimate goal. And we need all the technologies available to reach our net zero targets. It's very important to be honest.

[00:00:18.86] We are not yet in a mass market. There is no mass production, no mass offtake, no global exchange, no new suppliers, no equipment manufacturer, and no global pricing as what we can see on the oil and gas sector, for example.

[00:00:36.06] [Music Playing]

[00:00:41.33] Karen Baert: Dear listeners, welcome back to the Hydrogen Innovators podcast. This is a podcast series produced by the Stanford Hydrogen Initiative, where we spotlight bold innovators in hydrogen across academia and industry. You can find our podcast series, Hydrogen Innovators, on Spotify and on Apple Podcasts.

[00:01:01.39] I'm Karen Baert. I'm a recent Stanford MBA graduate, entrepreneur, and innovation strategist at the Initiative. Today, we're really excited to welcome Florence Lambert, CEO at Genvia, a French technology company focused on high-temperature electrolyzers. Florence, I believe we met for the first time about two years ago.

[00:01:23.62] We were geeking out about Genvia's innovation. And I still remember how impressed I was by both your technical and market knowledge. So [FRENCH]. It's a true pleasure to welcome you to the Hydrogen Innovators podcast. Today, we're really excited to learn from you.

[00:01:38.91] Florence Lambert: Thank you for this opportunity, Karen. For me, it's very important to have this kind of exchanges. And I think that I will come in to more detail later that we are in a very interesting part of the industry.

[00:01:55.06] We can speak about revolution. And hiring new skills, hiring new talent on board, I think is very important for us.

[00:02:06.58] Karen Baert: I couldn't agree more. We're at a really pivotal time in clean energy. Let me give a bit more background and context on Florence's career so far. And then, we can jump into it.

[00:02:16.82] So Florence's career in clean energy started way back. I believe it was around 2000. That's when she joined the French Alternative Energy Commission, where she held multiple managerial positions.

[00:02:29.48] And, in fact, that was just a start. In 2006, she co-founded the French National Institute for Solar Energy, where she worked both on solar and storage systems. In 2013, she became the director of a major research institute, gathering around 1,000 researchers focused on solar, hydrogen, carbon cycles, recycling, and low-carbon transportation.

[00:02:51.37] She's definitely been a key contributor to the French National Energy Storage Plan, but also the French Hydrogen Roadmap, which I believe was represented for the first time in 2018. And in 2021, she took over the presidency of Genvia.

[00:03:08.72] Florence, you've been a pioneer and key change maker in climate tech for decades. Can you tell us a bit more about your journey in climate tech?

[00:03:18.17] Florence Lambert: In fact, you told everything about my career. So I spent almost 20 years at the CEA, which is Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission. And I was very happy in that area because I was working not only research, but what we called technology research.

[00:03:40.86] It means that we have a pilot license with the ability to project innovation into an industrial reference. And for me, it was very important because our action was to catalyst innovation, and then to give it to the industry. So it was really a nice period for me.

[00:04:04.66] And we say in France, I don't know if we can say it in English, that I had [FRENCH], so I was encouraged during all my career to work on renewable energy. And so I had the opportunity to be one of the pioneers of [INAUDIBLE], but also the [INAUDIBLE].

[00:04:24.85] And you mentioned that it is a big research organization with 1,000 researchers. And it is today the third largest energy transition technology institute in the world, after [INAUDIBLE] in the US, and [INAUDIBLE] in Germany. But I can say that it is the first in terms of intellectual property, with more than 200 patents per year, which is a huge amount.

[00:04:55.60] And, at the same time, as you know, I really have a real appetite for crossroads. I've always tried to contribute to public missions. So as in 2013, when I took part in drafting the program, what we call in France, the New Industrial France, which was the first step toward the French hydrogen roadmap that was presented in 2018.

[00:05:24.79] And again, today, I still have different hats. I'm still contributing my energy knowledge within the Academy of Technologies, which is a spin off of the Academy of Science in France, and also as an Ambassador of the France 2030 program, which anticipates technologies of tomorrow and structures industrial value chains.

[00:05:52.19] Karen Baert: Fantastic. Let's talk a bit more about Genvia. How did you create Genvia back in the days? I know it's a particular setup. How did that come together, and with what goal and an inspiration?

[00:06:05.18] Florence Lambert: In 2021, after many lab to industry technology transfers, the researcher that I was jumped into industry to start from scratch the adventure of creating a startup that very quickly became a company with more than 140 people that were hired to execute our [INAUDIBLE] roadmap. This is Genvia.

[00:06:31.16] And with unique ecosystem, let me say an emblematic ecosystem, a research organization reputed for its excellence and where the technology comes from the CEA again, an international group, SLB, with a unique expertise in terms of industrial deployment and engineering, industries that seek to decarbonize their process, VK Group, a cement company, and Vinci group, a construction firm, and last but not least, the Occitanie region in France, whose ambition is to be the first net zero emission region in Europe.

[00:07:12.76] But we can say that Genvia also benefits-- and we will come back later with more details-- from a large support from the European Union and French government, resulting in a 200 million euros grant. And we were very proud because the French President himself came to Genvia to announce this big subvention to deploy our future production site in November. It was an amazing day.

[00:07:45.97] Karen Baert: Well, that's an impressive overview. And I'd say, let's dive straight into it because I know there's a lot to learn from you. So you're an expert in a wide range of climate technologies, like you just explained, including long duration energy storage. And you oversaw France's national strategy there.

[00:08:01.28] How do you see the role of hydrogen in long duration storage? How does it compare to other technologies such as pumped hydro or compressed air, for example?

[00:08:12.43] Florence Lambert: So the world today is facing a wall, we can say, to deploy energy transition. And we will need the full range of solutions to achieve the worldwide net zero emission ambition. This is why I will never make oppositions between the technology, so I mean hydrogen versus batteries or nuclear power versus renewable energy.

[00:08:39.23] So, for me, it's very important to address this energy transition with a full solution package. So the same idea applies to batteries and hydrogen, which are complimentary, and to the different hydrogen electrolyzer technologies, such as alkaline, proton exchange membrane, and solid oxide, whose maturity levels are different, but which will target different markets. And, for me, it's very important to have it in mind.

[00:09:10.08] And regarding storage, flexible solutions need to be deployed to support the renewable energy increase. And in that context, hydrogen is an electricity storage and a transport vector that will enhance the development of renewable energies, which are intermittent by nature. And hydrogen is also the only energy vector that can offer interseasonal storage capacity to complement dams and compressed air system.

[00:09:45.08] So we can say that compared with dam's, power to gas is above 90% efficiency, with flexibilization of the gas power grid to the gas grid achieves similar yields. And compared with compressed air, similar power-to-power yields are achieved around 50%. And we can say also that hydrogen is the ultimate solution for industry's decarbonization.

[00:10:14.56] This is why that, more generally, and it is really the power behind hydrogen and to connect all the dots and applications, the industrial landscape will be transformed by the emergence of what we call energy hubs connecting industries, so energy sector and mobility. That may start first in industrial ports areas. There, industries are also going to be producing hydrogen and e-fuels connected to small modular nuclear reactors.

[00:10:51.52] Karen Baert: Great. And you touched a bit upon the different electrolyzer technologies already, right?

[00:10:57.73] Florence Lambert: Yes.

[00:10:58.27] Karen Baert: So let's dive straight into that and, with that, the real innovation that you're working on with Genvia. So our listeners are pretty familiar with electrolyzer technologies in general, but we haven't spoken that much about solid oxide electrolyzers. So my understanding is these are high-temperature electrolyzers, where you basically instead of turning water into hydrogen, you turn steam into hydrogen.

[00:11:22.04] Advantage is higher energy efficiency, opportunity for heat integration. Challenges that we still see today are around the lifetime, partly because it's maybe still early in development because of higher temperatures, Maybe, and secondly, the [? rampability. ?] Can you tell us a bit more about how the technology works and how it competes versus more advanced technologies such as PEM and alkaline?

[00:11:49.16] Florence Lambert: So the main difference with solid oxide electrolyzers is that they operate, and this is what you say, at high temperature, so I mean from 700 to 800 degrees C. The more traditional alkaline technology works at ambient temperature and so does the proton exchange membrane technology. And that I will speak about PEM now for short.

[00:12:17.15] So the main advantage of the solid oxide technology is that the electrochemical reaction, so to produce hydrogen, converts not liquid water but steam into hydrogen and, thus, is a lot more efficient. In fact, the efficiency of the solid oxide electrolyzers is estimated to be around 15% more efficient than competing alkaline or PEM technologies.

[00:12:48.15] And if you use waste heat, this 15% increases to 30%. And I will come into more details. To make this very simple, the energy content of hydrogen, as described by the lower heating value, can be expressed as 33 kilowatt hour per kilogram. And sorry, you have to forgive me, but I don't know the values with the imperial system, so I have to stick with the international system of units.

[00:13:22.14] So I was saying that the energy content is 33 kilowatt hour per kilogram of hydrogen. Whatever happens, transforming water into hydrogen with electrolysis is going to take more than 33 kilowatt hours per kilogram. For the case of alkaline or PEM technologies, it takes around 50 to 55 kilowatt hour per kilogram of hydrogen.

[00:13:51.55] With solid oxide, it takes only 39 kilowatt hour per kilogram of hydrogen. And so you can immediately see the fantastic potential of this technology. Now, it's not magic. For this to happen, we need to capture the equivalent of about nine kilowatt hour per kilogram of hydrogen in the form of waste heat.

[00:14:17.41] In fact, we only need 150 degree system to be consumed by our electrolyzers. It is because the reaction is exothermic. And a large portion of the heat is recovered and self-sustained to keep the steam at high temperature.

[00:14:37.60] And in conclusion of the beauty of the technology, we can say that the 30% efficiency gain means getting more hydrogen out of each electron and out of each euro spent on renewable infrastructures, which is huge for the deployment of the technologies.

[00:14:59.48] And to come back to the complementarity between the technologies. So in addition, we are speaking about electrolyzers. But beyond this application, solid oxide technology are also used for fuel cell applications or reversible systems, so using electrolyzers and fuel cell applications, or even for the less known co-electrolysis application.

[00:15:25.56] When you can produce on the basis of water and CO2, what we call a syngas, which is a precursor for e-fuels. And all of these applications are based on solid oxide technology. And finally, I want to add that, indeed, even if solid oxide, PEM, or alkaline are competing technologies again, I see them as complementary for the different use cases we are facing in the energy transition for our planet.

[00:15:58.56] Let's not forget, again, what we have to face at decarbonization is the ultimate goal. And we need all the technologies available to reach our net zero targets. For me, and it's very important to say that, each technology comes with its own advantages and disadvantages.

[00:16:19.98] Alkaline, for example, is a proven technology and it is not very efficient. And it takes a lot of space, but it is available today and at industrial scale, if you need it. And it is a principal product to be manufactured.

[00:16:39.95] Then, if you consider PEM technology, it has advantages on its own. The technology is not yet proven in large industrial setting, but we do know that despite its lower efficiency and catalyst dependency, it comes with a lower footprint requirements and has a flexibility for startup/shutdowns needed for a balanced grid application, for example. And so we can say that to every application, its technology of choice.

[00:17:17.11] Karen Baert: That's a great overview. And indeed, I agree with you that we need different solutions for different applications. On that note, so because of the ability to use heat as input to the electrolyzer, the solid oxide electrolyzer is particularly attractive in applications where there is waste heat available already, right? And what target use cases does Genvia envision for its technology?

[00:17:44.03] Florence Lambert: So, Karen, we just discussed the advantage of the solid oxide technology and mentioned that each application has a preferred technology. And we can say that solid oxide is the choice technology for any application where the usable heat is available. Obviously, heavy industries are a key target market for this technology.

[00:18:07.91] In fact, chemical, steel, and cement industries are big offenders when it comes to CO2 emissions. Those emissions come from their chemical process or simplified from combustion of gas or fuels. The proposition we are making to those industries is clear and is the following.

[00:18:32.24] Let's recover that heat and integrate it into our hydrogen production cycle so you can use it in your process as an alternative fuel. And we can take the example of what we are doing now with ArcelorMittal. And we have a specific collaboration agreement with this key player in the steel industry.

[00:18:59.71] We are going to deploy an industrial prototype, which is a 200-kilogram of hydrogen per day system integrated into their plant in the South of France in the City of Saint-Chely-d'Apcher. And without going into detail, the purpose of this is to deploy a demonstrator on what we call an annealing process in replacement of a steam methane reforming process.

[00:19:28.50] And it will be deployed in 2025. So it's a big appointment for Genvia. And it will be our first application.

[00:19:37.69] Karen Baert: That's very exciting. And indeed, steel is one of the great examples of heavy industry use cases where there is heat available. Let's pivot a bit and talk about France and hydrogen. France has been one of the European front runners in developing a hydrogen decarbonization plans.

[00:19:54.17] You contributed to France's 2018 hydrogen plan, which was followed by a $9 billion euro investment. What I know the plan focused on was, one, certain industries where hydrogen is key for decarbonization, refineries, chemicals, mobility, and steel. But also, it focused on domestic supply chains, so domestic matching of supply and demand.

[00:20:18.31] Now, the French government today is committed to another $9 billion to get to, I believe, 6.5 gigawatts of electrolyzers by 2030, and then 10 gigawatts by 2050. Thinking back 2018 versus today, six years have passed. Where did we meet expectations and where not? And how do you look at the future on that front?

[00:20:42.47] Florence Lambert: So I would like to come back to this French initiative because it was key. So French launched this big hydrogen program in 2018. And, as I say, I was part of this initiative. And it was crucial to Genvia.

[00:20:59.01] The creation of the company would not have been possible without the involvement and commitment of this public-private ecosystem and the support of the French Government. Indeed, and I think it's very important to be honest, we are not yet in a mass market. There is no mass production, no mass offtake, no global exchange, no new suppliers, no equipment manufacturer, and no global pricing, as what we can see on the oil and gas sector, for example.

[00:21:31.77] And basically, the world has to build an entire industry from scratch. This is why we have this tremendous support from the French State to decrease the risk. And this long-term journey supporting capex of our production line and the first deployments with clients.

[00:21:52.95] And it is not France only. The rest of the world is also active. And we are seeing public involvement and public aid everywhere. The US have their Inflation Reduction Act, which is a huge positive catalyst to get the industry rolling.

[00:22:11.29] Japan, Korea, Australia, the UK all have hydrogen strategic in place and pledges for decarbonization. And it is actually very important to all region of the world to compete fairly in terms of public funding. It is also important that we promote circular economy and all these initiatives.

[00:22:36.28] And I also want to underline something I have built into Genvia, which is our DNA. It is the connection to innovation. It will be key for electrolyzers, manufacturers, especially in Europe or in the US, to be connected to innovation. We will not win on manufacturing costs alone.

[00:22:59.87] European and US companies need to keep spending on research and keep their technologies ahead of the curve. At Genvia, this means building electrolyzers with greater yield or efficiency, getting more hydrogen out of each electron again and out of each euro spent on renewable infrastructure, which is very important for the cost effectiveness of everything.

[00:23:28.88] For the European electrolyzer industry to lead the world, we need to be sure we are home to the world's most high-performance electrolyzers today, but also in the future. That is our intention at Genvia. To conclude on what's happening in France, we can say that we have a lot of new plants initiative in the hydrogen sector, but also in solid state batteries, and in high-efficiency PV In the near future.

[00:23:58.79] It's a big challenge in France, in Europe, the big improvement with just one drawback, which is that we have to face competition to hire new talents. And to anticipate that, we have created our own and local training school in the City of Béziers, focusing on automation and production for the industry.

[00:24:24.05] Karen Baert: Florence, you represented both France and Genvia at COP28 just a few months ago. Where do you think and hope we will be with clean hydrogen in 2028?

[00:24:38.28] Florence Lambert: And yes, we had a lot of announcements around hydrogen, not to mention overselling of the role of hydrogen in the energy transition that I never did in any of my speeches. In the hydrogen sector, the question of the infrastructures will be very, very important. This is why, for me, the market will start with the decarbonization of the industries, where it can be produced locally and where hydrogen is the only solution.

[00:25:12.06] Until 2030, we will have especially demonstration projects. And we will have a fast-scaling hub after that period, so I mean after 2030. I don't see a lot of mobility deployment before 2035.

[00:25:31.06] We may have some shortcuts in developing countries with renewable energy sweet spots, it means with very low electricity costs and with poor electrical networks, where we could have faster mobility deployments in their countries. But at the end, I have no doubt that in 2050, if it is the target, that we will have decarbonized production capability and hydrogen as the main energy vector, as hydrogen has ammonia, for example, molecules and the main energy storage to balance this energy. At that period of time, the multiple uses of hydrogen will become widespread.

[00:26:21.97] Karen Baert: And if I do the math correctly, this 10 gigawatts that is announced in France for 2050, that would be around 1.5 million tons a year of hydrogen, which is more than current hydrogen demand in France.

[00:26:35.99] Florence Lambert: Yes, yes, because today, it's below 1 million. It's 900,000 per year, so it means an increase of the markets. Because we will have a replacement of methane in some furnaces. This is why, in addition to the hydrogen feedstock market that we are considering today, we will have additional markets especially dedicated to this replacement of fuels or gas in all the big industries.

[00:27:08.10] Karen Baert: Indeed, so that 10 gigawatt could really cover both decarbonizing the current hydrogen market, as well as using hydrogen as a vector to decarbonize--

[00:27:15.87] Florence Lambert: Exactly, exactly, and progressing, replacing other and covering new markets.

[00:27:21.29] Karen Baert: --mm-hmm. Great. Florence, I'd love to move to the next section of this podcast, which is talking a bit more about your personal leadership journey in climate tech more broadly. You are the daughter of blue-collar workers. And you grew up in Grenoble and next to a big power plant. What triggered you to move into climate?

[00:27:43.04] [LAUGHS]

[00:27:43.53] Florence Lambert: Let me show you the story that drove me. I grew up near a CEA Research Center in Grenoble, with an understanding, when I was a child, that the world of science and technology was dignified, and serious, and somehow, secret. And with my school, and I think that I was around 12, we went to visit a hydroelectric power station in a small village in the French Alps.

[00:28:16.83] And that was a real shock. I realized that my technical curiosity to understand what's going to be fed by a wide range of subjects, from the atomic level to the development of complex systems. And in addition, and it was very important for me, the power station brought energy, brought life to local people.

[00:28:43.22] And this access to energy for populations, making local economic life possible is what guided me first, my first step, as a young engineer. And this is why rural PV electrification was the subject of my PhD. Years later, I also found this idea in the Energy Observer Project.

[00:29:09.53] Its objective was to demonstrate what the smart energy grids will be tomorrow with a mix of different vectors, I mean electricity, hydrogen, and heat. And with the famous [INAUDIBLE], we took an old catamaran and built a floating lab using the CEA's disruptive technologies and giving a nice picture of energy transition. And today, the boat is a UNESCO ambassador promoting new energy technology for young generations. And I'm very proud of that.

[00:29:47.42] Karen Baert: That is such a powerful story for us and also really shows how you find your way to climate tech so much earlier than many of us did. And your career in climate tech has been truly impressive. You've been receiving many awards, including being named Woman of the Year in 2020 in the innovation category by the Green Universe Media. And I believe that just now, in January, you received the Légion d'Honneur, which is [INAUDIBLE] award for outstanding merit in France, so huge congratulations on that one.

[00:30:19.42] Florence Lambert: Thank you.

[00:30:20.34] Karen Baert: You're a true inspiration for many female and male innovators. What advice would you give to your younger self?

[00:30:28.59] Florence Lambert: I will be shocked because I'm 50 now. And I think that it's clear to me what's happened in order to conduct these different ambitious projects. Listen to your intuitions and take risk. What's happening today, again, is a new Industrial Revolution. Nobody knows the real methodologies and the real process starting from scratch, but, again, just do it or join us.

[00:31:01.38] Karen Baert: Beautiful. Florence, I'd like to end with a question that we ask every guest in our podcast. I have this strong belief that we all stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. Using Isaac Newton's words, standing on their shoulders is what makes us see further. In that context, who inspires you most and why?

[00:31:21.88] Florence Lambert: Karen, I would say visionaries and makers. For visionaries, I have in mind [INAUDIBLE] who shaped the leading microelectronic industry in Europe. And I worked with him for 15 years when we started the [INAUDIBLE].

[00:31:42.49] And I also find this characteristic in Olivier Le Peuch, CEO of SLB I met more recently and who combines strategic vision with accurate and strong operational skills. And, for me, these visionaries, people help you move the lines and deliver your objectives.

[00:32:07.24] And as for makers, I personally think of my grandmother coming from the Italian immigration in France and who prepared her nursing degree at night because she was taking care of three young children during the time. This courage and ability to do are inspiring.

[00:32:33.62] Karen Baert: Florence, well, thank you so much for taking the time to both educate as well as inspire us today. The only thing I have left to say is repeating your words, actually, during a presentation, a recent one, and I think the Accor Arena in Paris, which was, take risks, be courageous. And at the end of the day, you will be proud of how far you've come. Thank you so much.

[00:32:53.28] Florence Lambert: Thank you.

[00:32:54.35] [Music Playing]