Mothusi Pahl | Hydrogen to decarbonize industry with existing infrastructure

Want to find out how to decarbonize industry through hydrogen with existing infrastructure today? All of that while producing a valuable carbon by-product? Learn from Mothusi Pahl, VP of Business Development and Government Affairs at Modern Electron in our 8th episode.

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This article is part of the series: Hydrogen Innovators Podcast

Transcript

[00:00:00.00] [Music Playing]

[00:00:02.63] Karen Baert: Fantastic, and I wish the listeners could have a visual component to the podcast right now. But I can tell you, we successfully fixed the road and got rid of the pothole here in front of us.

[00:00:13.68] SPEAKER 2: This might be the world's first podcast documented active sequestration. I went to the hardware store and we got some cold patch. So we're just going to put we're just going to cover that.

[00:00:28.47] SPEAKER 3: Oh, wow. You guys are nice. You called the city, and the city come out and do it.

[00:00:33.36] Karen Baert: We need to take a quick step back. So we are here. This is the first time that the podcast episode has an on-the-field component to it. We're standing here in front of a pothole in a random street in Palo Alto. And we need a quick explanation of what we just did here.

[00:00:51.08] SPEAKER 2: Yep. So we have carbon that has been stripped out of natural gas. The resulting hydrogen was used in our laboratory in Seattle for our heating applications in our lab. The carbon that was ripped out.

[00:01:09.31] We've blended back into cold patch. And cold patch is what is the normal material that's used to repair potholes. So we are sequestered. This is long-term carbon sequestration. And the application is in road repair.

[00:01:27.73] [Music Playing]

[00:01:37.53] Karen Baert: Dear listeners, welcome to this week's episode of Hydrogen Innovators, a podcast series is produced by the Stanford Hydrogen Initiative, spotlighting bold innovators in hydrogen all the way from academia to industry. You can find our podcast series Hydrogen Innovators on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

[00:01:54.55] I'm Karen Burt. Recent Stanford MBA graduate, entrepreneur, and innovation strategist at the initiative. And I'm thrilled to be your host for this week's podcast. Today, we have the privilege to welcome Mothusi Pahl, VP of Business Development and Government Affairs at Modern Electron. Mothusi, Welcome to the Hydrogen Innovator podcast today. We're thrilled to learn from you.

[00:02:15.56] Mothusi Pahl: Karen, thank you for having me.

[00:02:17.00] Karen Baert: So Mothusi was Chief Commercial Officer at a private equity firm, B3Bar, and he also held a joint appointment as an entrepreneur in residence at the University of California at Santa Cruz. He founded and co-founded multiple startups and has successfully introduced new hardware and software technologies into a variety of heavy industry verticals, including mining, oil and gas, and utilities. He even holds several patents in the fields of power generation and waste heat recovery, and has an extensive background in development and management of power engineering and field service companies.

[00:02:51.47] Mothusi spent the early part of his career at Clemons. And he serves on multiple boards and is a regular speaker at conferences, exploring the intersection of technology and heavy industry. Mothusi has an MBA with distinction in Environmental and Land Use Law from Yale University, and has done undergraduate work in economics and mathematics at UC Santa Cruz. He's also an active advisor to other early stage entrepreneurs in a lot of top rank accelerator programs, including StartX here at Stanford and Khosla-backed Alchemist.

[00:03:21.92] StartX is exactly where we are today for this interview. So let's start with Modern Electron. Modern Electron is a Bill Gates-backed sustainable heat and hydrogen company, building the next generation technology to decarbonize natural gas on site, enabling clean hydrogen fuel for a mix of applications. Can you elaborate?

[00:03:44.40] Mothusi Pahl: Absolutely. I'm happy to do so. As you are well aware, and I imagine as your listeners are well aware, hydrogen represents a really unique opportunity to both decarbonize, power generation, and heating, and even as a storage mechanism. And the slice of the marketplace that we're really positioning for in our underlying hypothesis, is that to make hydrogen accessible and timely and economic really requires the utilization of infrastructure that's already in place, that we as a society, as an economy, really can't afford to make the systemic changes that need to be made as quickly as they need to be made to get to decarbonization in the near term.

[00:04:41.74] I think most of us would agree that decarbonization today is more valuable than decarbonization a decade from now or 30 years from now. So the bigger picture question is, how do we accelerate this transition into a decarbonized state, a decarbonized economy? We are pro-renewables, and we're pro-green energy. But at the same time, we recognize that at least in the near term, renewables can't solve all of the decarbonization problems that we have, just because of the time and the money and the resource requirements to bring those renewables online.

[00:05:26.74] So our hypothesis is, and all of the technology work that we're doing is around decarbonizing natural gas. And natural gas is of primary interest to us, because especially in the United States, it's almost everywhere. Pipes go from production facilities to big industrial operators. They go to utilities that redistribute to smaller users. And the pipeline, our natural gas pipeline network is really, in many ways, it's like a battery. It holds a lot of energy.

[00:06:06.92] And the scale of that infrastructure and the amount of energy that's held within the natural gas network is really hard for normal human minds to fathom. And especially when you're talking about the heat that's required to generate the things we use in our daily lives, from paper to metals to plastics. The amount of energy that's required, the amount of heat that's required to manufacture these things is something that's it's really difficult to get to the temperatures you need to do this kind of manufacturing and the scale of the heat that you need to do this manufacturing without burning stuff.

[00:06:50.32] The question is, what are you going to burn? Or if your argument is that you want to electrify these things and you want to pursue the renewable side, how much electricity are you going to need to generate the heat to drive that industrial process? And where are you going to get it from? How long is it going to take to build out that capacity, to electrify the grid, to get the heat, to decarbonize that industrial process?

[00:07:14.67] And realistically, over the next decade, if we just want to think at the scale of a decade, there is no reasonable way to get to decarbonization at scale, specifically, decarbonization of commercial industrial heat at scale in the next decade, without doubling down on hydrogen. And from the work that we've done, there's no way to get that hydrogen integrated into our system at scale to decarbonize the commercial industrial heat by relying exclusively on large, centralized production models and then trying to push it out through a network that today relies on diesel trucks. So the decarbonization of natural gas is mission-critical for timely economic decarbonization of commercial industrial heat.

[00:08:06.09] Karen Baert: Great. And that's a very helpful introduction. So we talked about leveraging natural gas, decarbonizing natural gas, and also the fact that for high temperature heat, you need to burn something. And if you burn something, it's better to burn a clean fuel. So can you talk a bit more specifically about your technology and the specific application? Do I understand correctly, that we're talking about a small scale hydrogen pyrolysis or turquoise hydrogen application?

[00:08:34.12] Mothusi Pahl: Yep. So I try to stay away from putting color tags on hydrogen because it's really hard to understand what it means. So we just like to talk about this as zero CO2 or very, very close to zero CO2 hydrogen, more specifically zero CO2 or near zero CO2 at the point of use. And let's circle back to that topic in a moment. But let me answer your question first.

[00:09:07.84] I mean, methane pyrolysis is not new. The applications are well known and have been known for a century or more. It requires high temperature heat. And the general idea is a methane molecule, CH4, that if you get the temperature right and the operating environment right, that you can get the carbon to break away from the hydrogen. And the real questions are, like the balance of system of being able to manage that process and doing it in an anaerobic space, or one of our priorities, doing it in an anaerobic space where the carbon isn't joining with oxygen to create carbon monoxide or CO2 and being released into the atmosphere, which would be pretty much in line with the historical-- the historical model of pyrolysis has really been around optimizing your hydrogen production with no real validation or evaluation of the CO2 that's being released.

[00:10:12.86] Whereas we're taking the exact opposite approach, that there's no point in doing that hydrogen production if we're maintaining this historical CO2 footprint associated with hydrogen production. In our case, the easiest way to think about this is we have two chambers. We have a heating chamber, where the combustion happens. And we have the pyrolysis chamber, where the carbon and the hydrogen atoms split apart.

[00:10:40.43] And at the beginning of our phase, we'll inject natural gas into the combustion chamber. We burn that natural gas. We release CO2. The heat from that chamber warms up the pyrolysis reactor until we get to about 1,300 degrees C, at which point the methane molecules begin to break down, the solid carbon falls out.

[00:11:05.55] We take our hydrogen output. And we take about 1/4 to 1/3 of the hydrogen that we've produced. We turn off the natural gas that was going into the combustion chamber and inject hydrogen. So we use natural gas at the very beginning to bring the system up to operating temperature. But our steady state operation, the big energy inputs to create the heat over a sustaining industrial operations operating cycle of 1 to 2000 hours per cycle, all of that's being driven by combustion of hydrogen.

[00:11:40.45] So the really cool idea here is that the molecules of natural gas that are carrying, in and of themselves, carrying hydrogen to the point of use, to the burner tip or to a natural gas meter, actually have the potential energy to drive their own pyrolytic process and drive a non-CO2-producing pyrolytic process if we can effectively break those hydrogen atoms off and use that hydrogen as a fuel source for this ongoing heat generation that's required to keep producing hydrogen over these industrial operating cycles. So what we're building today are-- the easiest way to think about this is a black box that sits at a natural gas meter at a factory that has process heating loads. Today, they're burning natural gas to drive a furnace or a boiler. And what we're providing is the slot in gas processing tool that's literally stripping solid carbon out of the natural gas at the point where you need that clean fuel.

[00:12:54.51] That leads to a number of other interesting topics that we can dive into. But that's generally the idea of the technology. This is a thermal-driven process.

[00:13:04.91] The heating is not electric, which means that especially in capacity constrained markets like California, where PG&E and SoCal Edison do not want more electrical loads on the grid. how do you get to clean hydrogen that requires electrical inputs if your local utility doesn't want any new electrical loads on the grid? And this is a real elegant solution for delivering hydrogen without any new infrastructure and without any new electrical loads. Because you're using the heat inherent in the hydrogen in these natural gas molecules to drive your process.

[00:13:41.46] Karen Baert: Super interesting. So we're leveraging the existing natural gas infrastructure. We're taking our natural gas. So CH4, we're getting rid of the carbon by taking it out as solid carbon. And then essentially, we take the hydrogen molecules, burn them as a clean fuel to create heat or any other type of energy.

[00:14:00.01] Mothusi Pahl: That's exactly right. And if you look at the energy balance, we'll use about 1/4 to 1/3 of the potential energy of the hydrogen in any given molecule will be used for our process. And the remaining hydrogen is what's delivered to our client. So the math there, the easy back-of-the-envelope math there is that for every MMBtu of energy delivered, you're going to put 2.1 MMBtus of natural gas in. So it's 2.1 MMBtus of natural gas in to get one MMBtu of clean fuel out.

[00:14:40.89] Karen Baert: Great, cool. I was just going to ask you about one-tip trip efficiencies and what that means also for price points. And in that context, you talked about furnaces, you talked about high temperature heat. What do you see as key end users here? Are we talking industrial heat, or are we also talking like residential?

[00:14:59.98] Mothusi Pahl: Yeah.

[00:15:00.21] Karen Baert: And related to that, what are the price points? Is this cost competitive with the alternative solutions?

[00:15:05.11] Mothusi Pahl: Yeah, this is really exciting. And I'm glad you bring it up. The new tech-- I mean, this is independent of hydrogen. But generally, new tech, you're really positioning for first movers. And those first movers have a very clear understanding of their problem. They know something isn't right, and they're trying to fix whatever that issue is. They're trying to make progress on an issue.

[00:15:33.51] But they may not actually know what they need to solve that problem, but they're willing to pay a premium for it. In the new tech space, this is not a good fit for residential applications for a number of different reasons. The politics around residential hydrogen integration, there's conflict. There's conflict there.

[00:15:53.44] There are also hundreds of millions of end users. And that's a lot of complexity that at this stage of the game, we don't want to deal with. Leading the commercial side of the business, I can say very selfishly, I don't want to deal with it.

[00:16:07.96] But commercial industrial operations where you have steady thermal loads, where people need heat continuously and they're using copious amounts of heat, mean that any given factory could have the same fueling needs as 10,000 homes. So we could deliver a solution for a very large factory and decarbonize a footprint that would require a lot more complexity if we were doing residential. So could the tech do residential at some point in time in the future? Yes, but that's not that's what we're going for today.

[00:16:40.19] Karen Baert: Great. So what are your key initial customers you see?

[00:16:44.58] Mothusi Pahl: So we think about the market ecosystem as the parties that deliver fuel, i.e. primarily gas utilities, the parties that burn the fuel. So you're an OEM or a service provider or a factory using a furnace or boiler. Or you're the person who uses the heat. So you have the heat user, the heat generator, and the fuel supplier.

[00:17:11.79] And that triangle is really where-- those are either our buyer, our economic buyers, or our influencers. Those are the parties that are involved in our transaction. On the front end today, a lot of the activity is being driven by gas utilities that have large industrial customers that are pushing for decarbonization, but don't know how to get there. And they're leaning on the utility for ideas and suggestions, potentially hydrogen delivery.

[00:17:42.45] But ultimately, the job to be done from the end user perspective, from the factory side, more often than, it's not that they're hell bent on hydrogen. They have a decarbonization mandate that they have to meet that's either being pushed from a regulatory angle or from a shareholder angle. And they need help getting there. And hydrogen happens to be the method where they are saying, look, if we don't have to change our process, we don't have to change our business, maybe we have to make some changes at the burner tip or in a furnace configuration. But we're not changing our business model.

[00:18:18.07] And that's what hydrogen brings to the table. But this is what Modern Electron, in particular, really excels at is, if you have a boiler and today groups like Miura in Japan already manufacture hydrogen boilers. They already sell them. They're already deployed in the field in Japan.

[00:18:38.77] But the hurdle today is the end users of the steam off the boiler can't use the boilers as often as they want because they can't get hydrogen at the scales they need to really implement to decarbonize their full CO2 footprint. So the idea that you could take a hydrogen-optimized boiler or a hydrogen furnace and bundle it with a standard decarbonization unit and plug that in anywhere where you have a natural gas connection and deliver decarbonized steam, where you, as a factory owner, can offtake decarbonized heat, that means that in some of these scenarios, in one fell swoop, they can manage 90% of their CO2 footprint without having to worry about the headache and the logistics of how do I get to decarbonization? If you can decarbonize that heat at the point of use and you can do that economically, you solve a lot of the system problems, both in the question of how do you get hydrogen to where you need it. And how do I decarbonize a process heat scenario within anybody's given business?

[00:19:52.95] Karen Baert: Great, super interesting. So we're talking about large industrial customers. High temperature heat, you alluded to it earlier, very hard to decarbonize. At the same time, at the Hydrogen Initiative here at Stanford, we find it really important to share the full picture and acknowledge that hydrogen isn't always the best option. And there are also alternatives.

[00:20:13.50] So I mean, you're not new to the space. You've looked at a wide range of solutions. You even have patents in waste heat recovery. How do you put this solution in the broader landscape of decarbonization options for these industries? And when should the Modern Electron technology be used and prioritized, and when do you think it shouldn't?

[00:20:36.23] Mothusi Pahl: Yeah good question. To that point, there is no question in our mind, long run, long-term green hydrogen is where we, as commercial industrial operating environment, have to be. There's no question.

[00:20:54.61] The question is, is that viable 20 years from now? Is it valuable 30 years from now. It's definitely not going to be viable at the scale we need 10 years from now.

[00:21:07.42] So this is really the bridge. This is the bridge to the decarbonized future state that, I think, buys us time for renewables to get to the scale that we collectively need to service both our existing electrical loads for decarbonizing our existing electrical loads, decarbonizing the future electrical loads that are going to come online, and decarbonizing ultimately, whatever these next generation electrolysis technologies look like as they come on board. There is no question that, in my mind at least, that our decarbonized future is really going to be a portfolio of different solutions.

[00:21:50.63] And where we see in the near-term space for opportunity-- the biggest consumers for hydrogen today are refineries and ammonia. And those are really optimal applications for large, centralized hydrogen production. And today, that typically happens around a port where oil and gas is coming and going, where your refinery facilities are. And it's largely trucked. If it needs to go to a different location, it may be trucked out.

[00:22:23.60] We think that most of the legislation that's currently either on the books or pending, is really focused on this hydrogen hub approach to getting hydrogen to market. And that works within these big industrial complexes. But it doesn't help distributed manufacturing. So when you get 100 miles, 300 miles from these central hubs, that's the problem that we're trying to solve is, how do you help parties decarbonize in the near term, where electrolysis isn't a viable option?

[00:23:00.47] Karen Baert: Great. And I want to touch upon what you mentioned on intermediate solutions versus long-term solutions and where green versus turquoise, et cetera sits there. Obviously, in the solution at Modern Electron, we're still using natural gas. So we're still dependent on fossil fuels. Methane leakage and pipelines is still a thing.

[00:23:24.83] Do you see this as kind of an intermediate solution? Or do you think this will also be part of the end state? We need a mix of solutions if we think about net zero 2050. And do you believe this hampers progress to fully zero carbon industry and energy systems independent from fossil fuels?

[00:23:44.36] Mothusi Pahl: I don't think this hinders at all. In many ways, one of core concepts that I, as an entrepreneur, over the years of really understanding the value of so much of the work that needs to be done needs to happen in parallel and not in series. And if we think about all of the things that need to come to fruition to enable this decarbonized future state, it's like we can't-- it's a question of the chicken and the egg.

[00:24:20.73] You can't wait for the market to exist. You can't wait for the technology to exist. You can't wait for the regulatory framework to be created. You have to orchestrate all of that to be successful All of those things need to happen aggressively, quickly.

[00:24:40.11] And I think what we are really driving is a thought model where industrial operators who have been kicking the can and saying, this is so far away, hydrogen coming to my facility, or hydrogen being available in volumes at a price that would make a material impact on my CO2 footprint is so far fetched that I'm not even going to talk about it. I'm not even going to think about it. And electrification doesn't work for my process, because I have kind of downstream chemistry needs. And that ends up being a pretty significant hurdle if you can't get your markets to think the way we need them to think today about how aggressive they need to be about their decarbonization.

[00:25:26.26] So this approach of decarbonizing natural gas provides a new scenario and a new kind rubric for operations, leads and technical leads to not wait to think about how do I decarbonize my process. Because now there's actually-- there's an option. There's an option now in the near term, that requires a rethink.

[00:25:55.01] So I don't see it as 100 years from now, we should not be using natural gas for the same things that we use it for today. So absolutely, if we're still burning hydrocarbons at the rate we do today or even at a dramatically reduced rate 100 years from now, we're in trouble. The question is, where is that tipping point to where the balance of hydrogen tech and renewable tech is deployed at scale? But at what point is our electrical grid at scale, where we can move those loads off of combustion of hydrocarbons or hydrocarbon-derived products?

[00:26:38.10] Which actually goes to. I think another piece, and sitting here in California is certainly topical that the policy-- and I'm sorry to go here. But I'm responsible for government affairs. So it's usually something that's always front and center in my mind is, we're in an interesting space where we are proponents for decarbonization. But we're also proponents of natural gas. But we're not in favor of earning natural gas. We are absolutely in favor of using natural gas as a feedstock for a lot of the things that we, as a society, need to get to, or as a feedstock to get to the decarbonized state that we wouldn't be able to tackle without ready access to hydrogen.

[00:27:24.77] Karen Baert: Great. And it's super helpful to understand the nuances here and understand your view of where the Modern Electron black box sits in the broader context and decarbonization strategy. Great.

[00:27:36.96] I'd love to take a step back from hydrogen and Modern Electron and talk about another piece of your fascinating professional career, which is entrepreneurship, all the ways in which you have contributed to the ecosystem and how you continue to do so by being a judge and mentor in a lot of different accelerator programs. When you see new startups and new startup teams, what makes you fired up about a founding team or early stage startup? How do you identify potential really early on?

[00:28:07.80] Mothusi Pahl: The most important thing you said there was team. It's one thing to be a solo founder. It's something else to be a founding team. And in my experience, that's been really mission-critical for success. The potential, the likelihood of positive outcomes when you have complementary skill sets, I mean, as a founder, there's so much to do. And you get so far down your rabbit hole that it can become hard to prioritize, it can become hard to trust other opinions.

[00:28:47.15] And having co-founders makes all the difference in the world. So you answered your question. For me, it's team.

[00:28:55.79] Karen Baert: So it's having complementary backgrounds and I guess, gelling as a team?

[00:29:00.11] Mothusi Pahl: It is. And it's interesting just kind of in that dynamic. Not all high functioning teams work exactly the same. And so it's not that there's a prescription for what your team needs to be. But the value of the team and the value of each other and the personalities, it is never easy.

[00:29:20.75] And the struggles of around founding a company, it's easy to gloss over those challenges. And it's easy to paint a really sexy Silicon Valley picture. But the bootstrapping is like a journey that is a unique one. And it's from my perspective, it's mission critical for a group of people that can trust each other and that have that drive and that burn and that ability to support each other through whatever challenges pop up. So yeah, I'm always looking there.

[00:29:59.78] Karen Baert: What do you see? You have a very impressive career trajectory so far. You've been an entrepreneur, you've been in big corporates, you have a very important role today at Modern Electron. And at the same time, you are paying it forward and kind of contributing or fueling the next generation of entrepreneurs by mentoring and advising. How do you juggle all of that, and what drives you?

[00:30:19.94] Mothusi Pahl: I have a family that is really supportive. And I've got two kids, who probably keep me fueled more than anything else. What drives me?

[00:30:38.91] What I'm ambitious for is trying to make an impact. There's a universe of problems that need to be solved. And I think I've picked a pathway where I feel like I can make positive contributions, and I have a hard time sitting still. That's the ADD in me.

[00:31:01.90] So there's work to be done. There's problems that need to be solved. I think I feel like I'm pretty unique in understanding both the tech universe, the startup universe, and industrial operations, and particularly in and around energy and heat and power. And I don't meet many people who understand and can interact on each of the sides of this multifaceted figure.

[00:31:33.43] It's a lot easier for me operating there than a lot of other people. And while most people I find tend to run away from it, that may be the masochist in me. But I'm like oh, I understand this. I know how to talk on that side of the table, and I can talk on this side of the table.

[00:31:50.51] And I can create value for all of them. And it's a fun space to be. I think if I were stuck in any one of those worlds exclusively, I would be bored stiff. But by being able to translate, I was in Houston 24 hours ago with oil and gas folks. And I'm in Palo Alto today with tech community that kind of speaks its own language.

[00:32:18.02] And it's a unique space. I enjoy being in it. Fortunately, my colleagues at Modern Electron, who do most of the heavy thinking in both the technology side, the engineering side, and the analytic side is a great fit and welcoming for guys like me who are trying to draw those connections to bridge these marketplaces.

[00:32:46.64] Karen Baert: Bridging different worlds indeed and hungry for impact, I love that. And I must say that sitting here next to you, the passion is contagious. I want to end with a question that we ask every guest on our podcast. And I have this strong belief that we all stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us.

[00:33:03.98] And to use Isaac Newton's words, "It's standing on their shoulders that makes us see further." In that context, who inspires you and why?

[00:33:12.86] Mothusi Pahl: Wow, so I have to drill this list down. So a few people, really top of mind professionally. My first job out of college was as a Whitewater River guide. And the guy who took me under his wing was really a legend in the Whitewater rafting space in California, a guy named Roger Lee.

[00:33:40.49] And Roger was really my first point of contact with an entrepreneur with an owner, an owner who was responsible for, in any given day, the life or death of kids, families, just people who were going out for an outdoor experience and really didn't understand or appreciate the hazards of what they were getting into. And the way he taught me to think about management and groups and teams and customer service-- and this was before Clayton Christensen, my first Christensen readings, but, "Jobs to be done." Everybody was coming out here for a slightly different reason. And doing your job well required understanding who they were and what made them tick, and how you get everybody on board, or get them back on board when they've fallen out of the boat. The other person,

[00:34:43.47] Tony Satterthwaite, was really my North Star when I was at s And Tony became the president of the power generation business and is on the board at Cummins today. And he really helped me understand the value of digging deeper and trusting your gut that when something doesn't smell right, then go deeper. And just because the people around you are saying everything's fine, go deeper and find the people you trust and double down on building your organization, building your team.

[00:35:31.60] And the last person, Brad Simmons is a prolific entrepreneur down in Texas. He was on the US Olympic team back in the early 70s. And Brad really helped me understand again, just the importance of team, and that you never cut corners when it comes to talent, that you as an entrepreneur owe it to yourself, to your shareholders, to your other team members to spend the time it takes to find the right people. And you do whatever it takes to bring the right people in. And he really taught me that you can have the greatest idea in the world, you can have the most amount of money in the world. But if you don't get the right people on board, it's all for naught.

[00:36:20.75] So those would be those are my three professionally. And then my mom and my dad really laid the foundation for who I am today.

[00:36:29.30] Karen Baert: Wow, what a short list of giants. And I love how they kind of represent very different parts of your life. And also can't help drawing the parallel between wild water rafting and entrepreneurship and driving challenges and trying to keep everyone on board.

[00:36:44.48] This has been such a privilege to learn from you and be inspired. I'm fired up. Excited to continue to follow your progress at Modern Electron and far beyond that. And thank you so much for enlightening us today.

[00:36:58.05] Mothusi Pahl: Absolutely, thank you. Thank you for having me.

[00:37:00.17] [Music Playing]