Patrick Molloy, Principal at RMI’s Climate-Aligned Industries program and co-host of Everything About Hydrogen, joins the Hydrogen Innovators Podcast to explore ammonia’s rapidly expanding role in the clean energy transition—as a shipping fuel, hydrogen carrier, and critical input for fertilizers. This episode also marks the debut of our new co-hosts, Stanford PhD students Milenia Rojas Mendoza and Emma Kerr, who bring fresh insight and sharp questions to the conversation. Together, they discuss the impact of recent policy developments like the IMO carbon levy, the balance between centralized and decentralized production, and the global lessons emerging from hydrogen and ammonia deployment efforts. Patrick shares his personal path into the hydrogen space and reflects on the visionary leadership of Amory Lovins, offering a wide-ranging and thoughtful discussion on where this market is headed next.
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This article is part of the series: Hydrogen Innovators Podcast
Transcript
[00:00:00.48] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:00:02.90] PATRICK MOLLOY: Where do we see growth? I think there's quite a few areas, but the big one, and the one that's topical, given the day that we're recording, we have an IMO agreement on the way is around shipping fuels, where we see very, very expanded consumption of ammonia in that market as shippers start to move away from heavy fuel oils.
[00:00:23.99] That's the joy of this space right now is we're seeing huge growth. We see huge opportunity, and we see multiple market segments that are going to break apart a little bit. There will be mistakes, and that is part of the innovation learnings piece around this.
[00:00:39.64] [MUSIC PLAYING]
[00:00:52.01] KAREN BAERT: Welcome back to the Hydrogen Innovators podcast. This is a podcast series is produced by the Stanford Hydrogen Initiative, where we spotlight bold innovators, all the way from academia to industry to the world's best nonprofits. You can find our podcast series at Hydrogen Innovators on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. I'm Karen Baert, entrepreneur, Stanford MBA graduate, and your host.
[00:01:17.53] But today is a very, very, very special day on the podcast because I am incredibly excited not only for our guests today, but also to welcome Emma Kerr and Milenia Rojas Mendoza as co-hosts to our podcast. They will give a quick introduction right after this, but I can tell you they're both PG students at Stanford. They are incredibly passionate and sharp and really doing whatever they can to advance the hydrogen economy and the energy transition. And I'm so excited to have them as co-hosts at the Hydrogen Innovators podcast. So Milenia and Emma, welcome, and I'll pass it to you for a quick introduction.
[00:01:55.62] MILENIA ROJAS MENDOZA: Hi. So thank you for the lovely welcome. I'm very excited to become co-host for this amazing podcast. So currently, I am a third-year chemical engineering PhD at Stanford, and I'm in the Jaramillo lab. And my focus on research is green hydrogen production.
[00:02:13.16] EMMA KERR: Hello, everyone. I'm Emma Kerr, and I am a energy science and engineering PhD student here at Stanford. I work in Xiaolin Zheng's group studying proton exchange membrane electrolyzers and producing efficient catalysts with a lower reliance on rare Earth elements. So I'm very excited to learn more and speak with some awesome people in the hydrogen industry.
[00:02:37.23] My background includes some experience working with the federal government for the hydrogen hubs, as well as some research projects with the National Renewable Energy Laboratory and various other research experiences. So I'm very excited to be here and looking forward to our conversation today and the many conversations to come on this platform.
[00:02:57.96] KAREN BAERT: Thank you, Emma, and thank you, Milenia, and welcome to both of you. One of the-- I'd like to think that one of the goals in life is surrounding yourself by people who make you a better version of yourself and lift you up. And that's exactly what I feel here with Milenia and Emma and also with our guests today. So with that, I'm excited to pass it on to Emma to introduce our guest.
[00:03:18.06] EMMA KERR: Absolutely. So to kick off this new chapter for the podcast, we're really excited to welcome Patrick Molloy as our guest. Patrick, welcome to Stanford's Hydrogen Innovators podcast.
[00:03:30.60] PATRICK MOLLOY: Thanks very much. This is an exciting day in many ways. But I didn't realize this was the kickoff for the new hosts as well, so even twice as special. So glad to be here.
[00:03:40.78] EMMA KERR: Absolutely. We have to do something extra special to have you on board. Patrick is a principal with RMI's Climate-Aligned Industries Program, where he leads workstreams focused on ammonia and fertilizers, hydrogen infrastructure, and hydrogen system innovation.
[00:03:56.80] RMI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit that works with businesses, policymakers, communities, and nongovernmental organizations globally to identify and scale energy system interventions that will cut climate pollution at least by 50% by 2030.
[00:04:15.68] Patrick previously worked with the Irish Parliament, where he led work supporting different committees, and has extensive experiences working with the European institutions in various roles. As a seasoned podcast expert as well, Patrick is one of the co-hosts of his own podcast, Everything About Hydrogen, which we highly recommend as a thought-provoking platform for even more hydrogen-focused conversations.
[00:04:41.42] And with that, I would like to start with our first question with Patrick and diving a little bit deeper into those goals we previously mentioned that RMI is focused on. Some numbers that we polled is that RMI is projecting a very large increase specifically in ammonia production, and that's something that Patrick, in particular, has a lot of passion about leading. And so we're hoping to learn a little bit more about how ammonia, in particular, can be a derivative for the hydrogen market moving forward and where these large increases of economy are coming from.
[00:05:19.64] OK, so we're starting with the easy stuff. OK. I think there's so many facets and so many aspects of the ammonia market right now that we could start on. But I think the first thing to maybe base everything around is we have seen conventional production of ammonia, Haber-Bosch systems around 100 years, big facilities, have been very, very effective at supporting, particularly the ag system through the production of fertilizers. We've got a chemicals market as well, covering things like general chemicals and into explosives and things. And that's approximately 180 million metric tons right now.
[00:05:57.02] Where do we see growth? I think there's quite a few areas, but the big one, and the one that's topical, given the day that we're recording, we have an IMO agreement on the way is around shipping fuels, where we see very, very expanded consumption of ammonia in that market as shippers start to move away from heavy fuel oils.
[00:06:17.51] And also, and this is the interesting piece of this, as ammonia gets used as a carrier for hydrogen, and where hydrogen exports and imports become at least more common, we're going to see increased need for capacity and production coming online to support that effort.
[00:06:36.38] And then to just stretch that one just a little bit further, once more available, the questions about where else does ammonia get particularly used? What other systems could it provide resource for? So, in particular, thinking about the Japanese and South Korean markets at the moment, an awful lot of conversation around cofiring and demand for zero and low-carbon ammonia precisely in support of reducing the associated emissions in those facilities.
[00:07:04.29] Having said that, the primary drivers of this market are going to be those export and shipping fuels markets as new market segments. And then the fertilizers market continues to be a major, major pool of demand.
[00:07:18.57] So whether we say it's three times the size of the market in 2050, or we say it's five times the size of the market in 2050, the one certainty that we're facing here is a very vastly expanded volume of ammonia being required around the world. And the imperative here is to ensure that is produced in a responsible way and handled and managed similarly.
[00:07:41.76] KAREN BAERT: Great. Thank you for that overview, Patrick. And you asked for a hard question So here we go. You talked about maritime. So indeed, one of the key new use cases for ammonia is ammonia as maritime shipping fuel.
[00:07:53.04] My understanding is that if the shipping companies were to switch from the today very dirty fuel oils to ammonia, that would approximately double their fuel cost, which is-- can come with a challenge. Now, you mentioned the IMO just came with CO2 tax on these fuels. I think it was around $100 per ton CO2. What are your thoughts? Is this going to be enough? Is this going to significantly move the needle for ammonia in the maritime industry?
[00:08:22.71] PATRICK MOLLOY: I think anything that moves in the way that an IMO agreement has moved gives the market some level of sense of direction. It's not necessarily that a $100 tips the entire balance for the entire sector. I should say I am not a shipping expert, but I would defer to shipping experts precisely on the pricing points around this.
[00:08:42.67] But the one thing that we do know is that especially when you look at the technologies required towards producing low and zero-carbon molecules, and thinking about electrolyzers right now, the expected cost declines associated with producing hydrogen are related to changing the cost profile of the electrolyzers and taking advantage of low-cost [? terms ?] from renewable linked energy.
[00:09:07.46] So part of the dynamic here is understanding the trajectory of the market. And to the point, is it going to be immediately cost effective in every sense of the word? There's going to be some costs associated with it. The real question is, is there demand? Are there people seeking decarbonized shipping? Are they looking for attribute recognition?
[00:09:30.32] But also fundamentally, is this the trajectory that the market is on? Previously, we've seen the removal of sulfur from heavy fuel oils as a major IMO initiative before. Now we're seeing some level of a carbon levy on fuels. It becomes a case of OK, where is this going, given the length of time you have to invest money, given the need for different types of engines, given the investment in shipping transformation of the shipping fleets.
[00:10:01.99] So these aren't about short-term gains. This isn't a commodity arbitrage game. It is far more a case of, can we see the road for the next 20, 30 years, and what are the investments you make on that journey if you believe that these signposts are indicative of what is coming down the line?
[00:10:18.34] So perhaps a little bit of a hedge on the agreement question. But nonetheless, I think to the point, it gives an indicative assessment or an incentive to encourage shipping groups to take action today. It also gives indirectly the sector incentive to start investing in these kind of fuels and these molecules.
[00:10:40.72] Very recently, we saw the announcement-- CF Industries, Mitsui announced I think it was a $4 billion facility in Louisiana. There's obviously a lot of other folks looking at similar kind of scale of production facilities as well in the Gulf Coast. These sort of agreements give confidence to investors and project developers to move forward with these projects.
[00:11:04.19] And given some of the uncertainty that has been in the market around particularly the hydrogen tax credits and questions around that, this sort of initiative is very, very welcome, I think, in general.
[00:11:16.42] KAREN BAERT: How do you think the traditional users of ammonia, like farmers, will be affected by this industry expansion into new markets and applications?
[00:11:24.94] PATRICK MOLLOY: Yeah, I think that's the-- I don't know whether it's a $64 million question anymore, but it's a lot more money, I would suggest, than that. The real challenge here is, given those traditional use cases of ammonia, the alignment of supply, the consistency of the profile of consumption, that when we add in very, very large volumes, very significant or offtake use, and also just very different types of market behaviors, or do we end up with volatility because of that?
[00:11:58.77] And do we end up with a situation where directly or indirectly you have sectors competing for scarce supply? And that challenge is certainly one that should be top of people's minds, but it also creates opportunity.
[00:12:13.62] And for a lot of our work focused on agriculture-related supports for fertilizer, we're looking at how do you enable production that can be low carbon, that can be cost-effective, can be stable in pricing, avoid some of the volatility that has impacted that market over the last number of years.
[00:12:35.88] But also, on the other side of this, how do you get confidence in the growth of this market and investment in new and more efficient facilities? Well, you need to see growth. And the one really, truly incredible thing about this situation is we are going to see that expansion that we spoke of at the beginning.
[00:12:55.40] That has the opportunity then to encourage people to invest in the space. It has the consequence of giving new technology providers the opportunity to trial new systems and for innovation to play an increasing role, rather than trying to disrupt a very established technology stream, more, to try new things, to innovate in new markets and into new spaces and to align more.
[00:13:18.85] Back to the farmers for a second. It really does depend on the market that you're in. What might be more concerning is in markets-- and I'm thinking just in our own work, looking at sub-Saharan Africa, where the logistics chain is more complex, where the costs today are already multiples, often, of the floating average price in any of the major traded economies.
[00:13:41.52] Suddenly, that kind of scarcity risk or that disruptive risk has a very, very real consequence and risk on food security. It also has economic implications and knock-on implications around that. So it's incumbent on everybody to look at this to ensure that we avoid the kind of, I suppose, over or undersupply scenarios. And therefore, we're going to need to see capacity development pretty extensively to avoid it.
[00:14:12.00] There's also an awful lot of efforts in farming to do more sustainable agriculture. So using fertilizer more optimally, using more advanced molecules that will be more effective at nitrogen fixing as well. So there's different pressures and sequences that come into play here.
[00:14:29.30] And we're very interested in the disaggregated ammonia production models, which offer some level of potential for rampability and lower kind of scale of production. So trying to move the actual molecule degeneration closer to the actual user, has economic development advantages, but also changes the cost profile as well in some of these markets.
[00:14:53.35] So all very interesting, but that's the joy of this space right now is we're seeing huge growth. We see huge opportunity. And we see multiple market segments that are going to break apart a little bit. And we're going to see change in how these supply chains work, which is something we do not see very often in many of these related markets. That was a slightly long-winded answer, but I think we got there in the end.
[00:15:16.56] KAREN BAERT: A lot to think about.
[00:15:17.88] EMMA KERR: So I do have a question. In addition to adding on these new technological advancements and pushing forward the industry in that manner, how do you also see-- and, again, today is a really great day for the IMO agreement trailblazing this. But how do you also see other policy signals or market mechanisms encouraging this expansion to unlock investment in low-carbon ammonia and hydrogen infrastructure?
[00:15:46.74] PATRICK MOLLOY: Yeah. So policy right now is certainly, I think, top of many, many, many people's minds. And any level of subsidy and support is obviously welcomed by folks who are trying to generate and build.
[00:16:02.04] I think there's other-- we can talk about carbon levies. We can talk about tax credits. We can talk about direct subsidies, structures. But I think one of the other factors that perhaps doesn't get as much attention and is often a very, very critical thing for folks who are looking to develop facilities and deploy the technologies is around permitting and regulatory controls.
[00:16:24.81] And if you want a nonhydrogen-linked example, if you look at the queue for renewable energy developments, in particular, but some power facility developments on the grid, there's an absolutely enormous line of people waiting to develop those facilities.
[00:16:41.30] And some of that is structural. There's just constraint on systems because infrastructure isn't good enough, or there just is other kind of general constraints. But also, we run into things like, how long does it take to develop a high-voltage transmission line or a pipeline? How long does it take to get the permitting done for using different kind of resources or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:17:03.71] So I think there's the high-level policy that has gained much attention over the last number of years around the economic side of this. But the practical deployment side of these technology plays is one of the barriers that perhaps doesn't quite get the attention it needs, especially if we're expecting such an acceleration in need.
[00:17:24.92] Now, there are positives to having some of this technology spread perhaps closer to the actual consumer, and that it now is perhaps no longer about developing the same level and scale of infrastructure, but more about optimizing that infrastructure and building critical streams.
[00:17:43.33] But this optionality is still reasonably new, and to the point, something that needs to be considered in the same way when we were talking about just some of the dynamics in the traded market itself. So, yeah, perhaps several strands of policy, both at local and kind of state level, as well as, for instance, federal level. Or for that matter, country level in Europe and EU, and et cetera, et cetera across other geographies.
[00:18:11.33] KAREN BAERT: Patrick, you talked about ultimately, we need to increase access to low-carbon, low-cost ammonia, both for the current ammonia users as well as for all these new use cases that are emerging. And you talked about that idea of more decentralized production that could give more power to local communities, reduce transportation costs.
[00:18:32.47] At the same time, for a lot of these new use cases, we're really talking about optimizing across borders. In some way, like centralization. We need to go to the areas where we have low electricity or low energy costs and then transport that molecule across the world. How do you think about striking the right balance between the decentralization and the centralization approach within clean ammonia?
[00:18:55.88] PATRICK MOLLOY: Yeah, that's a really good and deep question, which I'm sure we could actually probably spend several hours going through the minutia. But fundamentally, I always try and think about volume. When you talk about, shipping fuels, the volumes are significant. They're going to a central location, i.e., a port. So bunkering capacity is a constraint as well.
[00:19:19.41] Having said that, on the other side, the decentralized options-- and I used to work with mining companies looking at fuel transitions. And one of the things that always used to shock me is how much they paid for the liter of diesel, the gallon of diesel that they were trying to bring to a site. Sometimes it was 2x, 3x the actual market price in the country where they were operating. So it was one of those things of those logistical constraints can actually be quite significant.
[00:19:46.75] And the other side of this is sometimes smaller volumes and access to more proximate production at smaller scale, even on a technology innovative, first-generation project might have a premium attached to it. In some parts of the world, that price might actually be competitive today, or close to competitive today. And in the future, if those systems evolve and the technology costs come down, we potentially see something that's actually closer to more traditional market prices. Now, that's a hypothesis, but one that we have good precedents for.
[00:20:20.48] So how does this break apart to the large-scale versus small-scale production? I actually think it's quite a kind of a self-selecting profile. If you have large, high-volume users, having a 500,000 or 800,000 ton per annum facility makes a lot of sense. And if you've got to build a pipeline to users who are using a few hundred tons, doesn't make a lot of sense.
[00:20:45.15] And similarly, if you're going to truck that, well, what's the hours being driven? What's the control? What are the insurance and related risks? And suddenly, there's a proximity benefit.
[00:20:56.61] And that's not to say that's going to be on the farm. And, in most cases, probably it won't be. But we might see regional scale. So you get production within North Africa and Southern Europe, for example. Or we get production in Texas supporting a huge amount of the industrial load. But we might see some production in the Midwest for farming consumption.
[00:21:19.37] I think this is all just the opportunity when we say, OK, there's a fossil plus CCS pathway that is now taking hold. And blue ammonia production is something that's real. On the other side, there are renewable electrons in the Midwest that are available that you can also use to produce the same chemical product that does the thing that you need it to do, and may offer things like more stable pricing rather than volatility.
[00:21:47.68] So it's kind of tradeoffs, not necessarily alone on price, but on profile of use, on risks folks and consumers are willing to bear. But also at the end of the day, what these things do is they start to de-risk each other and stabilize supply. And certainly, what we saw in the last couple of years in terms of fertilizer prices being very, very volatile, has had a knock-on implication for how people think about these problems.
[00:22:14.41] MILENIA ROJAS MENDOZA: And as you're working with different countries and global players, how do you see the US approach to ammonia compared to other countries? Are there other lessons or models we should be paying a closer attention to? Is there like a country that they're doing this right? Or maybe they are doing something right, and another country is doing also something right? And maybe if we had the perfect mix of them, we should be doing that?
[00:22:38.32] PATRICK MOLLOY: I mean, I think one of the fun parts of where we are right now is that for the last four or five years, we've had so much interest and excitement around hydrogen and people. People have been calling out, oh, the hydrogen hype an et cetera, et cetera.
[00:22:54.61] But one of the benefits to having that much attention is that people have looked at structures of incentives. They've looked at how they might like to engage these markets. They've looked, in some cases, infrastructure problems. They've looked at the opportunity space as much as they've looked at what could they do to actually make this a viable pathway or market in their own countries? And there's always that cross learning.
[00:23:19.79] And it's interesting in that when I first started working on hydrogen, it was-- in spite of the efforts of folks doing very good work for extended periods of time and some great companies in the US, the US was considered behind for an awfully long time.
[00:23:37.24] And then suddenly, a set of policies come in, and everybody thinks this is it. It's taking off in the US entirely, and there's just learnings between them. So I don't ever think that a good or a bad. It's that sometimes your use case in a sector is going to be more concentrated in one country.
[00:23:57.91] So if you are-- take Sweden as an example, looking at the Swedish iron ore reserves producing green steel starts to become the priority for them. Whereas, look at Australia, a traditional exporter wants to get into the game on ammonia in Western Australia.
[00:24:19.12] And similarly for other countries, looking at industrial transformation and using hydrogen and ammonia as fuels and feedstocks that have different footprints. There's just myriad learnings, whether you talk about transport, whether you talk about molecules, whether you talk about deployment or consumption. And there's always cross learnings.
[00:24:39.17] So certainly, the US has done an awful lot in the last number of years, both at federal and state level, to support the development of these markets. I think there's a lot of work in the EU. There's been an awful lot of work in Japan, but there's many, many other places that have done good, strong efforts. I think Australia recently also had a support announcement. Essentially, we build together a little bit in these cross learnings.
[00:25:05.20] And to some of the point that Karen just asked about re the market connections. Often, when we're talking about these things, it's very easy to look at production and consumption at the same point. In reality, some level of crossover and trade, rules or requirements from buyers, for instance, start to create standards or expectations of product in production locations as well. And that kind of cross-drive also is a factor in it.
[00:25:33.18] So maybe the short answer to all of this is, there's lots of people doing lots of very interesting things in supporting some of the would-be use cases and demand sectors. And there's just an awful lot of lessons learned for everybody across the globe as you look to engage these markets. So whatever structure works for you and your environment is a good one. But keep your eyes open to see who else is doing something that might be beneficial as well.
[00:25:58.41] EMMA KERR: And I think, Patrick, you're in such a great position to see these global structures as well as in your own personal passions of having hydrogen-focused conversations on your own podcast. You have such a unique breadth of knowledge of just how the human aspect of this market is played out.
[00:26:18.63] How do we properly share these lessons between one another in order to make sure that we're not making the same mistakes? And how do you see that sort of communication and these cross-collaborations helping each other in order to make this a reality?
[00:26:34.69] PATRICK MOLLOY: So I think the first thing to say in general response is there will be mistakes, and that is part of the innovation learnings piece around this. And certainly, anybody who's developed a project or is building a technology understands that when you try and innovate, there's risk. And that's part of the value proposition that you have to understand.
[00:26:59.93] I'd go back to the lessons learned. I think when I was first looking at hydrogen as well, I remember seeing I think it was an IEA number that suggested there were 350 megawatts of electrolyzers deployed in the world. And today, we're talking about projects that are three times that, five times that number in total.
[00:27:22.73] And one of the lessons to learn here, I think, around that piece, is that when we hit certain levels of confidence in a technology, the real driver of any of the potential outcomes is the deployment piece. And if you get real deployment, you do see those cost curves coming down. And you do see that when we look at all the emerging technologies in the energy space, the more they're deployed, the more they improve. But some of the lessons learned are from just building the projects and doing the first time, first of a kind project.
[00:27:56.16] The other aspect of this, which is really important is perhaps the more coordinated or structured way is to think about the hubs and to think about cross-learning by virtue of common kind of development-- same locations, using same infrastructure or needing the same infrastructure or storage capacities, learning different off-take profiles and how you manage a system that has to supply that, understanding kind of things that perhaps you just don't know until you run a run a system.
[00:28:27.61] So to coordinate learnings and cross-learnings is always tricky. I don't think that there's always a straightforward route to it. However, having said that, an awful lot of folks who develop projects partner with other organizations to do it. And there's learning in that way.
[00:28:45.70] There's also efforts in general to share technology understandings, to sell products to different countries. And, for example, Nel, as an example of an electrolyzer manufacturer, very famously in Norway. But on the other side of this, their facility in Michigan that they're still going forward with, I believe, but also, they have their facility in Connecticut, which used to be the proton on-site facility.
[00:29:13.08] To the point, part of the learning is availability and proximity. It's about getting people together, getting stuff in the door and working out how we work together. It's not long ago we were not talking about ammonia for ships or hydrogen for steel. And to the point, that's part of the learnings here, is that once something becomes available, what can we do with it? What could be done?
[00:29:37.37] So yeah. It's a tricky one to structure, but that's part of the joys of these markets right now is that just a lot of interests, a lot of concentration, and a lot of opportunity.
[00:29:48.59] KAREN BAERT: I couldn't agree more, Patrick. And I think that collaborating across industries, across countries, across communities, across pieces of the value chain is so incredibly important to make this happen. And it's been great to see how you and your broader team at RMI has really been spearheading some of these efforts.
[00:30:07.37] We are nearing the end of our episode here, and we've learned so much from you. We'd love to transition and ask you a few more personal leadership questions. And maybe to kick that off, you've been a thought leader in energy and policy for more than a decade. What drove you to the hydrogen industry specifically?
[00:30:28.89] PATRICK MOLLOY: So there's this crazy person who I know, and anybody who listens to the Everything About Hydrogen podcast knows him well. His name is Chris Jackson. And he and I had the good fortune of being at Johns Hopkins at the same time.
[00:30:46.90] And through luck, fortune, or just the way the world works, Chris and I ended up talking about hydrogen. And Chris had long been interested in it, and I had reason to be interested in it by virtue of looking at some of our challenging work on mining, actually, at that time. And we started by looking at some of the challenges around hydrogen development and what it could do or where it could fit.
[00:31:15.99] But in our work, what happened very straightforwardly is we were looking at mine sites and mine sites needing power, but also needing to manage things like fueling trucks. So suddenly, you need a molecule. It's not just alone, the power source.
[00:31:33.45] And that's how we dropped into hydrogen in the first instance. It was about use case. It was about availability. And it was about solving problems. And I think that was the very good fortune of having that kind of early engagement with Chris on this is like, what problems can we solve and having a conversation about doing things that are difficult.
[00:31:54.87] So I think that's where we started. Our RMI team, which now has blossomed into a huge team, has very much done an awful lot of work on steel, has done work on the shipping fuels markets, has done work on fertilizers. But also, things like hydrogen infrastructure and related infrastructure streams, looking at the financing around these things, and also the potential in other markets.
[00:32:20.07] So how did I get into it? It all goes back to that random conversation that you have with people when you're at grad school, and then it spiraled from there. And, Chris, now, for anybody who's interested, is the CEO of Protium, which is a UK energy development company who do an awful lot of hydrogen work as well. So yeah, this is where we started.
[00:32:43.31] KAREN BAERT: I had no idea. And I think we should all thank Chris on behalf of the hydrogen industry that he brought you into this space here. Patrick, we're getting to the last question of the podcast, which is one that we like to ask every guest.
[00:32:56.88] We have a strong belief that we all stand on the shoulders of giants, and it's those giants who help us see further. In that context, who inspires you? Who inspires you most and why?
[00:33:07.79] PATRICK MOLLOY: So there's many, many people that I could list here, but I think one that's appropriate, given that we're talking to you all through the Stanford connection group here, which is to say, Amory Lovins, who founded RMI and who I believe is teaching, I think, one of the semesters this year and probably has continued to teach.
[00:33:30.28] But Amory, for a long time, has been an innovator, has been a generational thinker around energy efficiency, about systems thinking, and about approaches to make our energy system more effective, efficient, and just generally better for the people who need it to work.
[00:33:48.58] So in the very, very fortunate place to be that I get to work for an organization founded by him and ethos and mentality that he brought to this has been very, very much inspirational in developing the work that we do.
[00:34:02.14] I think that's the appropriate person, especially given that the first time we looked at hydrogen, we thought we were doing something cool and novel. And then we found out that Amory had written an extensive series of papers on it 20 years before, which just tells you everything you need to know.
[00:34:20.06] KAREN BAERT: Incredible. What a legacy. Patrick, we're at the end of the episode. Thank you so much. We learned so much from you. We will continue to root you and your RMI team on from the sidelines, and excited to have you on soon again to talk about the evolutions of the very dynamic hydrogen and ammonia market. Thank you for your time today.
[00:34:41.19] PATRICK MOLLOY: Thank you all. It was a pleasure.
[00:34:42.75] EMMA KERR: Thank you, Patrick.
[00:34:43.83] MILENIA ROJAS MENDOZA: Thank you.
[00:34:44.42] [MUSIC PLAYING]
