Pierre-Etienne Franc | Accelerating the Hydrogen Economy Through Infrastructure Investment

In this episode of the Hydrogen Innovators podcast, we sit down with Pierre-Etienne Franc, a global leader in hydrogen investment and infrastructure. As the CEO of Hy24, the world’s largest clean hydrogen infrastructure fund, and co-founder of both FiveT Hydrogen and the Hydrogen Council, Pierre-Etienne has played a pivotal role in shaping the hydrogen economy from multiple angles: finance, policy, and industrial deployment.

Pierre-Etienne walks us through his journey from launching Air Liquide’s Hydrogen Energy business to spearheading multi-billion-euro investments in clean hydrogen across the full value chain. He shares key insights into how Hy24 evaluates risk, aligns diverse stakeholders, and drives large-scale deployment at speed and scale. We also unpack common misconceptions about hydrogen, explore the emerging project hotspots around the world, and reflect on the leadership qualities needed to build lasting climate infrastructure.

Whether you're a policymaker, investor, entrepreneur, or student, this episode offers a rare inside look at the strategic vision and deep conviction driving one of hydrogen’s most influential voices.

Listen on Spotify and Apple.
This article is part of the series: Hydrogen Innovators Podcast

Transcript

[00:00:00.50] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:00:02.99] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: But it remains true that if you manage to get the people to get a bit out of their corporate values and to look at the goal of the whole thing beyond what they want for themselves, then whatever you think you can do, do it. Because with action comes magic, grace, and power.

[00:00:29.94] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:00:42.50] KAREN BAERT: Welcome back to the Hydrogen Innovators Podcast. This is a podcast series produced by the Stanford Hydrogen Initiative, where we spotlight bold innovators in hydrogen across academia and industry and across the world. You can find our podcast series, Hydrogen Innovators, on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. I'm Karen Baert, one of your cohosts for today. I am an MBA graduate and entrepreneur in the hydrogen world.

[00:01:09.93] EMMA KERR: Hello, I'm Emma Kerr. I'm a current PhD student at Stanford University. Thanks for joining us today.

[00:01:16.47] MILENIA ROJAS: I'm Melanie Rojas, and I'm also a chemical engineering PhD student at Stanford. So welcome. And today, we're excited to welcome Pierre-Etienne as our guest. Pierre-Etienne, welcome to the Stanford Hydrogen Innovators Podcast. Thank you. So Pierre-Etienne is the cofounder and chairman of FiveT Hydrogen, an investment platform focused on low carbon hydrogen, and the CEO of Hy24, which manages the world's largest fund dedicated to clean hydrogen infrastructure.

[00:01:47.82] He is also the cofounder of the Hydrogen Council, where he served as cosecretary from 2017 to '21, helping bring together industry leaders and shape the global hydrogen agenda. With a career spanning venture capital, global strategy, and energy innovation, Pierre-Etienne has played a key role in building the investment and industrial ecosystems that are driving hydrogen forward. So we're honored to have you with us today.

[00:02:12.66] And to start up this episode, my first question is you've been at the forefront of the hydrogen economy for decades. What was the moment that first convinced you that hydrogen would be pivotal for the energy transition? What made you dedicate your career and the most big chunk of your life to hydrogen?

[00:02:31.77] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: That's a good question because I think many of the large disruptions didn't start as being seen as major disruption. I think the first Apple from Steve Jobs was not seen to be just a disruption. Same for the industrial gas industry. The first use of nitrogen oxygen was for theaters to provide some blushing in the theater sphere.

[00:02:53.83] Now, it's used everywhere. For me, when I started on hydrogen, it was part of a sideways in my career. I was not clear on where I wanted to go. And they gave me this set of technologies, saying well, let's see what he's going to do is that. And hydrogen was looked at by Air Liquide as a way to eventually open new applications around the mobility.

[00:03:17.50] And it's with the time, by growing into serving the purpose and trying to enlarge the scope, understanding the different applications, and trying to see how we could show how hydrogen could play a role in the transition that's progressively-- and it was especially with the council, when we launched the council in 2016-- that we saw that, in fact, it was a very, very large purpose that hydrogen was capable to serve.

[00:03:50.83] And by connecting the dots of all the different industry players-- so the mobility, but also, the oil and gas, the chemical, the steelmakers, et cetera-- trying to seize the message, which was to say-- at the time, if you remember, Elon Musk was building up the battery wave. And he was calling the guys from Toyota, from Anglo American, from Shell, from Daimler, [INAUDIBLE], saying guys, if we don't gather in front of that [INAUDIBLE] kind of systemic play, it's over.

[00:04:25.49] And so the purpose was hydrogen for mobility, but then we looked at the broader picture a bit. No, it's far bigger than that. And this is really then that everybody understood we were just missing the point, that there is no future of the global energy system if you don't have hydrogen as being the missing link for what electricity doesn't do.

[00:04:47.37] And so it came a bit late, to be honest, even though I know that many people wrote books before, like Robert Reich, I think, and a couple of others, on the hydrogen economy, et cetera. But we took the vision of it. We formulated the narrative, the potential, the demand, and then the size by, I would say, 2017, 2018. And before that, it was just application-driven. That was the big shift.

[00:05:14.78] KAREN BAERT: I really like what you mentioned there on that holistic thinking when it comes to hydrogen. And I think that's exactly what the industry needs to make progress. Pierre-Etienne, from Air Liquide to Hy24, your career has really bridged science, business, and public policy. And at Hy34, you managed the world's largest green hydrogen infrastructure fund. Can you tell us a bit more about what exactly you're working on at Hy24 and how that helps advance the hydrogen economy?

[00:05:43.85] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: So the initial purpose of this was back after we created this Hydrogen Council. And we got a bit of momentum. Rapidly, we shared the conclusion that we needed the financial players in. And, as I had been involved in several very large alliances between many groups to try to develop the mobility network in Germany, or in Japan, or in Korea, or in Denmark, each time, gathering those people together, very large groups with their regulations, governance, et cetera, was taking years just to develop the agreement.

[00:06:20.53] And then so we were too slow. So I didn't know yet what was the fund, but I understood a bit that if you had a fund, basically, you were entrusted with money to develop things more or less in an independent way, which was a way to go faster. So we figured that if we were capable to entrust a team with money coming from industry players, then the financial will come in because they would see skin in the game.

[00:06:48.61] And if the financial will come, the industrial will play because it would be a way to share the load. And so this is the start of the dynamic of Hy24. So we had to create a dedicated team. I had to take the decision to leave the company, Air Liquide, because otherwise, it wouldn't have moved because classical asset managers would not take such a risk, and spending a bit of time there because it explains what we're working on now.

[00:07:12.61] So with that, we've managed to gather industry and financial players together. And we try to invest in schemes, project developers, companies, where our own investment is bringing leverage. So basically, when we put one somewhere, I consider it's going to be a success, if, at the end, the size of the project or the business that has been created is 10 times bigger.

[00:07:38.56] So normally, if we play right, the $2 billion we are investing is going to deploy $20 billion worth of assets. And what we try to look at is either project developers having very good teams and relatively advanced project developments or projects which are already at FID, Final Investment Decision, being constructed.

[00:08:02.54] But we believe by coming in, we bring with us other investors that follow us because we are basically the vanguard of the hydrogen economy fund managers. And so there are a couple of examples. If you take H2 Green Steel, which is now called Stegra, which is this hydrogen production DRI steel making company based in Sweden-- when we came, I'm not saying we brought in, but we convinced, or brought confidence, to other very large classical sovereign funds or asset managers to move with us.

[00:08:45.28] It doesn't mean we are always true because we may make failures, but we tried to basically catalyze the results. So what we're working at today-- well, first, we're trying to work out the outcome of the current dynamic in the US, to be honest, which is not good for green hydrogen, I think, to say the least. That's obvious.

[00:09:04.49] And it's, above all, very shaky. So we don't know exactly how it's going to impact investment in the US. So that's the first thing. So then we're looking at how the rest of the world is moving. And we believe it's continuing. So we're positioning our investments in the places where you've got the best stability of the policy agenda on the regulations because even though it's a business-driven topic, it doesn't work without the political mindset on a big drive.

[00:09:30.66] And that's why Europe is critical, even though it's slow. But in a way, China is important as well because China-- well, it's an authoritarian regime, but it's very steady in the deployment. We're not investing in China yet. That's a topic. And we're looking at Australia. We're looking at Middle East.

[00:09:47.33] And we're trying to look at the whole value chain because we want to blend the risk of some pieces in hydrogen for refining, for ammonia, for methanol, for SAF, but also, being in the midstream, like steel-making, and also, being in the downstream, like mobility.

[00:10:04.11] So we're trying to blend the investments so that we cover all segments to mitigate the risk, but also, because asset managers-- each fund is already preparing the next one. And when we raise the first fund to billion, everyone says it's very big, but in fact, it's not big. It's too small.

[00:10:24.02] It's big for the present moment, but for what's needed tomorrow or in three, four years, it's far too small. But we are not going to be able to raise a bigger fund if we don't succeed with the first one. So we need to find projects which are easy to start and are going to provide exit so that you can show a return to your investors, and you move to another one.

[00:10:45.74] So basically, blended, close to FID, or already post-FID, and of course, as it's an infrastructure player, we were looking at projects with some off-takers that provides cash flow, et cetera. Then we're going to do it. We'll move into a financial discussion now because [INAUDIBLE] that's the topic.

[00:11:03.51] KAREN BAERT: Super helpful. Thank you for that overview. I have a quick follow-up question there on risk. You mentioned risk a few times. And I want to double down there for two reasons. Of course, one of the key challenges in these new hydrogen projects is that typical infra-investors or other financial vehicles aren't used to taking market and technology risk in a certain way. And having Hy24 really being the first mover there to catalyze all the investments makes a huge difference.

[00:11:33.37] Secondly, when we were preparing this podcast with your team, one of the key things that stood out was that your team was really, really speaking highly of your leadership and the willingness of taking that risk because that's needed to advance the industry. So on that note, how do you evaluate risk in your investments and projects?

[00:11:56.45] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: So this is a subject of intense discussions in our committees because of course, we try to assess those projects as infrastructure fund, but by definition, the starting point is a venture play. And so you can do all the sensitivities you want. If the regulation is not there, there's no project.

[00:12:18.80] So in the end, it's about, of course, a good feeling from the people having met the developers of the project. That's the key, but there are a couple of rationales that makes us more or less comfortable. First, of course, the quality of the team-- it's not only one people, but the overall team-- and with the quality of the team, the ability to deploy a growth strategy which is going to find new projects if one is getting down.

[00:12:45.16] Second, if you look at the way we've invested, we are most invested in countries where the renewable energy availability, cost, and stability is good, which means hydroelectric or very good balance of wind and solar because this is the core of green. We can do blue, but we must cling to green today.

[00:13:05.30] And third, as I said before, we're trying to position ourselves in countries which have legal, political, and regulatory stability, especially with respect to the transition, which is fundamental. So if we've got those three elements, we have some chances that, in the end, they will pick the right projects.

[00:13:30.25] I'm not saying it's going to work all the time. I think we are very different. You're perfectly true when you say we are early on. So we are taking the early mover risk, which is not always working. We hope it will because we try tried to also serve a purpose, which is far beyond just the fun performance.

[00:13:46.67] And that's not valued, but that's valued by the people in the team because they're working for something new, which is making a difference, I guess. But what's very impressive is that even though there is this knowledge by the people that there is a part of unknown in everything we do, they do it. They document the project. They document the due diligence in a way which is incredibly tight, rigorous, and serious.

[00:14:18.63] So even though they might just pop up as nothing because the regulation disappears, which can happen, the way it's been developed is extremely strict, which is very touching because you've got a lot of energy spent on things where there is still a bit of irrational. And then we see what happens, but so far, so good.

[00:14:43.29] EMMA KERR: Pierre-Etienne, so as you create your portfolio of projects that you've agglomerated across this value chain and across the many countries that you're involved with, what are some that you believe will be the game-changers, especially in the next 5 to 10 years?

[00:15:01.00] And as you build out this value chain, is there a metric that you've set for defining success of when you believe that these certain stipulations that you choose your projects based on-- maybe you can move beyond some of that and move towards more projects that have more of this realistic ability?

[00:15:22.35] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: So I'm not a big fan of the guy for his political positions, but an inspiration of game-changing is what Elon Musk has done with the electric vehicles, to be very honest. And so it's stimulating because hydrogen economy is dealing with very big industrial segments, which are usually very conventional, traditional, and are not going to be moving like that.

[00:15:51.64] So they need to be disrupted. So you need to get players that are moving from beyond or from next door and that are doing the things in a different way, in a very blunt, and I would say, aggressive mindset, but with a lot of skills to make it happen. That's what we have with Stegra H2 Green Steel. So this is game-changing. It is nothing very special in the technology. It's just a guess to say we're going to do it all from scratch. And we're going to demonstrate to the old industry that it's feasible. So this is a game-changing type of business.

[00:16:27.79] Another one which is, I would say, further away because it's longer-term, but is a huge game-changing player, is ICE, Intercontinental Energy. This is trying to do with sun and wind what the big oil and gas industry has done with LNG. You go in the middle of nowhere, especially in Australia. And instead of digging underground and getting out the gas, liquefying it, and shipping it, and developing a complete new industry in 50 years, you take the sun and the wind. You transform them into hydrogen with electrolysis. And then you convert that into ammonia, and you ship it.

[00:17:05.06] So this is the same, in fact, but having the guts to say we're going to plan something for the next few decades and looking at sites which are going to be 20, 30 gigawatts size, and find the right or wrong as partners to do that is very disruptive. And if they don't make it happen, those guys, I don't know who's going to do it because they're very advanced. So that's another game-changer.

[00:17:26.12] And if it works, you're basically unlocking the big part of those very abundant energy sources that we need in order to fuel the countries which don't have any space, time, and access to abundant resources of sun and wind to make their own energy, which is the case for Europe, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore. That's the second one.

[00:17:49.22] The third one is less known because it's French, but it's trying to demonstrate and crack the chicken and egg issue of the hydrogen economy. It's on the mobility side. It's the HYSETCO startup, which is not a startup anymore, which is this mobility as a service company, which has taken an existing mobility as a service platform, leasing cars, taxi licenses, fuel repair, et cetera, and reconverting it to the same thing with hydrogen.

[00:18:18.76] And if it works, you can replicate it in many cities. You can do it for VTCs or light commercial vehicle. And you can deploy your mobility as a service model, which is beyond just the issue of hydrogen, which is the new ways of developing mobility in cities to limit the ownership of cars and the number of cars on the road. And if it works, it's a disruption.

[00:18:38.67] And I would take a last one, which is maybe in another vertical, which is ammonia. I think we're not invested into this one. But I think NEOM, which is where their products have started with ACWA Power in Saudi, was very ahead of its time, very big for the time because it was very much at scale.

[00:18:56.81] It's trying to demonstrate the value of doing this very remote renewable energy into green ammonia and relocalizing the way you see green ammonia. And if you do that, many countries, like Morocco, like Paraguay, where we are investing today, are going to become energy sovereign, and not only energy, but also food sovereign because they will make their own fertilizers with their own resources of green energy. Morocco is sun and wind. In Paraguay, it's the hydroelectric.

[00:19:29.16] So those type of things are disruptors because if they work, you can replicate them, and it can change the industry. That is a bit what we're looking at.

[00:19:40.02] EMMA KERR: Thank you. It's really awesome to see your passion surrounding these projects, especially your acknowledgment of how they're able to make others' lives better and to benefit countries who need that development. And so I'm curious. When you look at your portfolio of where you're funding, do you have a perception of how your projects may ensure equity in your development, especially for emerging economies or regions dependent on fossil fuels?

[00:20:13.02] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: What do you mean by equity? You mean by sharing values or--

[00:20:16.47] EMMA KERR: Sharing values and offering the opportunity, as you said, for sovereignty or--

[00:20:21.78] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: Equality. For equality? Not, basically, taking away the resources from remote countries for your own benefit? This is what you mean?

[00:20:29.11] EMMA KERR: Yeah.

[00:20:29.67] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: OK, OK. Because I was not clear. So two things there. First, I think we are making a bit of a mistake. We-- and I include you and us, European and US, by thinking that the countries from South America or Africa will have to do the same route as we do and move to clean directly because I think they need to develop first.

[00:20:55.24] And their concern in Africa is first to get to a level of development where they can think about being more sober and using clean energy. And if Africa just doubles its fossil energy use, it's still going to be a very insignificant contribution to emissions. So I think we should be very careful trying to let them exploit the resources they have so that they can grow. Probably, they can immediately grow in a more balanced way between fossil and nonfossil. That's one thing. But we should not try to use exactly the same concept we have for us that they have for them.

[00:21:29.97] The second point is that there is a tendency to think that-- how do we ensure that if I go to Morocco, or if I go to Oman, or if I go to a country in South America, again, like Paraguay, then if we try to do something that takes part of the renewable resources, and with that, bring them back to US, Europe, Korea, Japan, we are spoiling the resource.

[00:21:57.14] But it's not exactly what happens because normally, what those countries are going to be able to do-- they have far more energy potential than what they need themselves. So it's not taking the energy that they will not use. It's taking their energy for themselves, but they have so much more that it would be a pity for them not to value it.

[00:22:16.40] So then it's a question of business relations between the states so that they value properly the loan that they're going to rent. And also, in many cases-- that's the case for Morocco-- they're not going to sell you just the electrons. They're going to try to go up the value chain and to sell you not the electrons, but maybe the ammonia, or maybe the methanol, or maybe the steel. And so then it's becoming a relocalization strategy on the debate between the north and the south.

[00:22:42.84] So I don't think-- at least, I don't see that as a risk of inequity in the way we play because again, you're not coming to take resources out of those countries. You're going to help them value resources that they have in a unique way. It's a bit like the oil and gas monarchies. They made a lot of money by valuing their soil. And now, they're trying to move up the value chain. Look at Saudi Arabia. Now, they're trying to become a chemical platform. And they're becoming a very large petrochemical platform. And then we are closing our chemical plants in Europe because it's too expensive, too costly.

[00:23:21.90] So at some point, it's becoming negative on the other side. So I don't know if I answered your question, but I think it's rather balanced with that. I'm not so sure it's an issue, but maybe I'm wrong.

[00:23:34.82] KAREN BAERT: I would say I agree with that. And one of the things I really like about this energy transition is that historically, the power has been with the countries who had oil and gas and coal. And now, we're gradually shifting to a world where the power will sit with the countries at most renewable resources. And a lot of those are in the Global South. So in many ways, we're shifting that power, and indeed, as you said, Pierre-Etienne, giving opportunities to new geographies and countries.

[00:24:02.31] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: And that's your point. The beauty and the trouble with this new world of energy is that it's never going to change inequality. Still, we Europeans will be stuck because we didn't have [INAUDIBLE] fossil and we don't have renewable. We don't have enough renewable at the right cost and with the right space. So we still are dependent.

[00:24:21.83] The only thing which is better with the renewable energy world is that you have far more diversity of access to renewables. So it's going to calm down a bit, the power of energy resources countries. And it should level a bit out the relative power of those very strong oil and gas countries or continents. And I think for that, It may be better for peace or for geopolitical tensions, I would say.

[00:24:52.23] KAREN BAERT: Absolutely. Pierre-Etienne, want to talk a bit about building bridges. Why? Because Hy24 brings together-- I think it's around 50 industrial and financial players. Another thing that your team highlighted when we talked to them is your ability and Hy24's ability to build bridges between different worlds within the ecosystem. Tell us more about how you do that and how you think about that. What's your secret sauce?

[00:25:17.67] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: Well, you never really know why you do things. I've been used, since very-- not young, but since I was a student-- to gathering people to lead things in a consensual way. I think there are two things. There is the way people behave in their relations. I am trying, always, to find the solution and not to defend my own interests.

[00:25:44.84] I don't know why. That's the way I am, which makes me sometimes go too fast to the solution. And people think well, if he gives it because he has some benefits-- and so sometimes, it pushes me to not negotiate properly. But in the end, I'm trying to position myself ahead of the table at the top of it to see the views of everyone.

[00:26:07.82] And second, and it's a bit the same. I'm not standing in the middle. I'm not trying to give the industrial and financial a position in the middle. I'm giving them a position ahead so that they all look in the same direction. So I'm not trying to be the neutral focal point. I'm trying to be the point ahead so that they do not collide, one against another.

[00:26:33.73] Where is the middle-- they're looking at the same way forward. And as long as you can bring them a way forward, then they tend to ignore their own interest and look at how to move the way forward. It's a bit theoretical because of course, it's not always so simple, but it remains true that if you manage to get the people to get a bit out of their corporate values and to look at the goal of the whole thing beyond what they want for themselves, then you move.

[00:27:04.40] And it's a discovery for me because honestly, I had no special interest on knowledge of fund managers before I discovered them when I thought there was a need to do something like that. But it's true that fund managers-- that's the difficult part of the beauty of monetary system is that there is only one criteria. It's performance.

[00:27:24.81] So financial players give them money. And then they wait to see what's the performance. So for us, it's a bit-- we still have performance. It's a bit different because we want to assure payers who want us also to unlock industries. So if you manage to show ahead that you're matching both the performance and unlocking scale, you're basically having the players moving forward.

[00:27:47.97] But also, to be very honest, having two types of interests is always a way to neutralize the ones that are more vocal than others saying, ah, I'm sorry, but I cannot listen only to the industrial guys because the financials don't agree and reciprocally. So playing the balance between diverging interests neutralizing themselves a bit is also a way to move.

[00:28:09.98] But I think, in the end, it's a personal mindset to try to be looking at the overall view and always trying to be ahead, so to run ahead of the pack, to show them where you want to go, and to accept that responsibility. That's the way I would-- and for the council, it was the same. When we built the council, it was all about that. And it worked because they were looking at something beyond them. So they were not fighting. They were looking ahead.

[00:28:42.20] MILENIA ROJAS: No, I totally agree, and that's super inspiring. I know that we're all working towards the same things, just in different ways. And once we let go of that and we realize we're all in for the common good, then that's when the real collaboration happens and the innovation.

[00:28:56.88] So speaking of this, so you've been in the hydrogen space for many years now. And you've been trying to shape the narrative from the inside. Have you seen any major mind shifts around hydrogen in the past five years? Was it before where people were like, this is never going to happen to now, where people are like, oh, I can see this happening? Have you seen a transition from that?

[00:29:18.60] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: I think the hydrogen economy is going through this famous hero's journey that's been theorized by Joseph Campbell, this enlightenment, inspiration, disillusion, Valley of Death, and then you're spiraling back. So we've moved from nowhere to-- oh, my gosh, hydrogen will save the world. It was basically the last two years. And suddenly, everybody suddenly wanted to do everything with hydrogen.

[00:29:43.33] So we moved from a segmented approach to hydrogen to a global narrative, a region-by-region to a world place. So that has been understood. Then it's been over, over, overselling and spelling of the thing. It's been overspinning. Now, it's getting back to something more rational.

[00:30:04.95] And now, what we need to do is be careful not to miss the moment where it needs to go back up because if we miss it, then it's going to spiral down to nothing. I don't think it will because during the same time, the number of players, the number of projects, the size of investments, the maturity of the technologies, and your best, I would say, knowledgeable people to know that it's moving a lot, have increased significantly.

[00:30:31.27] When we launched the Hydrogen Council and when we did the narrative and everybody was so very excited, there were barely a couple of projects of 20 megawatts up and running, including the ones we launched with Air Liquide in Canada. And now, many people are saying it's not there, but you've got hundreds of projects that are being built. They are all 100, 200 megawatts. So they are the real size.

[00:30:53.83] Ammonia is moving. Methanol is moving. Even mobility, that people are trying to, I would say, consider as not working, is going relatively strongly in China. It's developing in Korea. And all the OEMs are considering they will need both types of technologies-- hybrid batteries, hydrogen, so the three types.

[00:31:13.55] So the vision has been built. It's there. The cost has moved up and down. So people have oversold. Now, they see the cost is higher that-- they said no, let's project. And the technology maturity, I think, has improved. So we are not in the same game anymore. We are still a nascent industry, but we are an industry.

[00:31:35.93] And the issue is to make it now grow resilient so that-- as I said, just after the investiture of Donald Trump, the hydrogen industry is a bit like the heart of Melania Trump at the investiture. So it's bringing you a strength that makes you immune from whatever happens. This is what we need. We need a heart that makes us immune from the rest of the world because today, we are too fragile.

[00:32:01.43] If there is a change of regulations, everybody is shaky and says, oh, hydrogen will die. We need to move beyond that, which is the case for solar, and wind, batteries. They are beyond that. Even nuclear is beyond that. Hydrogen needs to go the other way. And for that, we need a couple of big successes so that people understand it's part of the solution, needs to be deployed everywhere. This is the next, I would say, era in the next coming years.

[00:32:26.60] EMMA KERR: Specifically, do you have any misconceptions in mind that you think people need to put to rest in order for hydrogen to have this wonderful hat and to be resilient and to be a part of our future energy landscape?

[00:32:42.69] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: I think three things are misconceptions. The first one is speed. We live in a world where people have completely forgotten what's the energy deployment time frame. They believe everything is digital, is going to take a couple of months or years.

[00:32:57.35] An energy wave-- the LNG took 50 years to reach a couple of percent of the world final energy demand. The battery wave is just starting. The renewables-- it took 35 years to reach a pace that they have now, where they bring 1% per year, but it took 30 years to reach that moment. And nuclear has been there 70 years. And it's barely 2% of the final energy demand. We were expecting the hydrogen economy to represent what LNG is today in only 15 years. It's not possible. That's true. Maybe hydrogen will do good things in 25 years, but not in 10 years or 15 years. First.

[00:33:40.54] Second, cost. People shoot hydrogen, saying it's too costly. This has nothing to do with hydrogen. The increase of cost is first, inflation, just after the COVID. Second, interest rates rise to counter inflation, which has a rebound effect on the inflation, especially in the renewable energy price, which is the core of the energy, which is the core of the cost of hydrogen.

[00:34:04.96] And third, the only thing which has a bit of hydrogen role is the supply-demand imbalance. The manufacturing of electrolysis was not there, so people were pricing up, but this is not hydrogen. This is all related to the external forces that drive the hydrogen cost. So hydrogen is no cheaper, no more expensive than the other energies. It's the secondary energy. What we need to do is to make it as efficient as possible. And this is where you study, trying to improve the efficiency to 80%, 90%. And today, it's only 70%.

[00:34:40.11] And the third element is this notion of efficiency. Oh, the global well to will of a hydrogen fuel cell truck or car is far lower than batteries. Each time you go through hydrogen, you're reducing efficiency, but people are not making the right comparison. First, the issue is not efficiency. The issue is cost. In the end, it's dollar.

[00:35:04.89] The global energy system is very inefficient. It's only 50% efficient in the end from well to wheel. This is good because the oil costs nothing in brackets. It's very, very cheap. So the issue is not efficiency. The second reason why it's not the issue is that when, thanks to hydrogen, you can capture sun and wind in the middle of the western Pilbara, where otherwise, you will capture zero, and with that, you will capture maybe 30%, 40% net of the electricity you get, I'm sorry. This is more efficient.

[00:35:42.05] So those things are misconceptions. People looking just not at the systemic, but just at one part of the overall chain of the energy transition. So those are the three topics we need to change, but we need, on our side, to deliver. That's another thing. We need to stop selling things, overselling prices which are nonsense, and just deliver and walk the talk. And this is on your shoulders to do.

[00:36:11.27] MILENIA ROJAS: Definitely. I totally agree. This has to be on both sides. We have to show, to prove, but then also, everybody has to have patience. Nothing is-- Rome wasn't built in a day. But taking a little pivot from the hydrogen questions, just a little bit-- know more about your leadership style.

[00:36:28.62] So as a grad student myself, getting to interview leaders like you is incredibly inspiring. And I know that career journeys often feel anything but linear when you're living through them, so they seem more cohesive in hindsight. If you could go back, what piece of advice would you give your younger self at the start of your career?

[00:36:49.46] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: It depends on every-- each and every one will have a different answer, I guess. For me, I think I should have been more curious, to be honest. I was not curious enough. I was a bit in my family life and with my friends, and probably not looking around enough, even though when I was faced with something, I was always a bit excited about it.

[00:37:08.55] And second, more globally, I tend to use that sentence because it helped me a lot when I decided to-- it appears very easy now, but at the time when I decided to leave Air Liquide after 25 years of career, I was saying maybe I'm making a mistake. And there is this sentence, which is-- it's funny because the origin of the sentence-- it's a sentence from Goethe, but in fact, from a poet that reshaped a sentence from Goethe, an English poet, which is basically saying whatever you think you can do, do it because with action comes magic, grace, and power.

[00:37:50.24] And this is super powerful because this is the factor, what happened. When you have something in you and you have an alignment with the moment, the inspiration, the support, if you move, things move. It doesn't work always, but when you feel that, it's hyper powerful.

[00:38:13.20] So that, I think, is something you need to have in your mind because there are moments where you've got a alignment of stars. And either you take it or you don't, but if you don't take it, then you may regret. And the younger it comes, the better it is because you can test things, the younger you are. So I think this is the kind of advice I would give myself, if I were younger. Don't hesitate to test things.

[00:38:42.12] KAREN BAERT: That is incredibly powerful. Thank you for sharing that with us. Pierre-Etienne, we're getting to the last question of this podcast. And this is a question that we like to ask every guest. We have a strong belief that we all stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us. And using Isaac Newton's words, it's standing on their shoulders which makes us see further in that context. Who inspires you? Who inspires you most, and why?

[00:39:06.54] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: So I'm going to-- so I thought about it because that question sometimes happens. And I'm always conscious to answer because as everybody, I'm impressed by those guys that stand up alone and may change the world. So it can be Gandhi. It can be Churchill. It can be de Gaulle. It can be Roosevelt.

[00:39:24.57] Even, in a way, those descriptors we discussed about Steve Jobs and even Elon Musk, even if I don't like the end, but the start was impressive. But in fact, what I would like to give is two examples which capture better what I think, which are movies, and which are, I would say, heroes in movies.

[00:39:41.47] The first one is George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life from Frank Capra. He's played by James Stewart. It's the story of an entrepreneur in the real estate business, which is a very incredible, powerful guy. And progressively, he's making a small mistake, not even his mistake, but he's got an issue. And he's moving in despair. And he decides, more or less, to commit suicide.

[00:40:09.14] And so the movie is then that before he commits suicide, with-- please, please come back and look at what your city would be if you would not be there. And he discovers the impact he has on the life of others. So I think this is fundamental. So that's one. For me, what's inspiring-- it's the capacity of being capable to see what life would be without you. And everyone, we have an impact on people around us if we do something.

[00:40:37.31] And the second movie is the 12 Angry Men from Sidney Lumet, with Henry Fonda being the juror number 8. This is a trial, a penal trial for a children that is accused of having killed his father. And they are in-- the jurors-- they need to take a decision together. And everybody wants to basically condemn the child.

[00:41:03.43] And one guy, Henry Fonda, is starting progressively, standing up to question. He said are you sure? What do you say? Why? So he's developing, based on a, probably strong intuition, a very steady rationale to progressively get everybody back into saying well, we cannot condemn this poor little boy because apparently, there's no reason for it. There's no evidence.

[00:41:34.82] And so the power of being strong, standing up, calm, quiet, with a rationale to get over the patience and the emotions of people that are angry, which is the society we're in, to get everybody back together into something rational, I think, is a fundamental inspiration. So those are movies rather than people.

[00:42:01.73] KAREN BAERT: Wow, Pierre-Etienne, we've had such a rich conversation all the way from movies to Melania Trump's hat to Paraguay to magic, grace, and power. First of all, thank you. Thanks to you and your team at Hy24 for moving our industry from hype to a real industry and for helping us enable some of these first big successes that the industry desperately needs. Thanks for your time today, thanks for the insights, and thanks for the inspiration.

[00:42:30.92] PIERRE-ETIENNE FRANC: And thank you all for what you're doing in sales because you're bringing the products of tomorrow. [CHUCKLES] Thank you.

[00:42:37.58] [MUSIC PLAYING]